Linus hates KDE 4, too.

[Snowhog]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

I give KDE 4.2.00 a + as well. I've been using KDE 4.x since it first came out. KDE 4.2.00, for me, is nice. I like it. It appears to be very stable - I've had no crashes - didn't with 4.1.4 either. It's crisp and clean.

[Qqmike]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Oh Gosh, folks, again, this topic!

It is obviously important. I waiver. My latest attempt at 8.10 (installed from CD), with 254 MB updates was not good at all (Adept is goofy--I can't even get firefox from it; can't put Konsole on the Panel with right-click). I feel I need 8.10 to work with newer Intel boards (DG43), but can't move forward with comfort. My details aside ...

kyonides said:
"I know it was a risk they had to take, but com'on people, they should have been more careful, the first impression is something so important for people nowadays that you can't just forget about it..."

And I must say I believe kyonides makes a good point about first product impressions.


However, it begs the issue, because it brings us back to the question, WHO is the intended audience--the end user--of Kubuntu OS * in the eyes of the developers*? Who are we trying to make "some" impression on?

Well, it's not Aunt Minnie for god's sake; that's for damned sure.
I'm not sure it is strictly for cousin Geek, either.
It's for someone in between these extremes: the intended target audience for Kubuntu seems not well defined in the minds of developers, and I feel THAT is where they need to achieve some clarity.

If it's on the geeky end, then a first impression of major troubleshooting is a plus! Gives 'm something to do, a challenge, a chance to learn something, to build it the way they want it, to test & write bug reports.

If it's on the Aunt Minnie end, someone just wanting to use the darned thing for email, family photos, documents, and Internet hobbies, then that first troubling impression is a show-stopper, rendering it dead in its tracks, maybe forever or for a very long time.

It's a plain, simple, well-known fact of marketing. The exponential, killing effect of negative word-of-mouth is well known; as is the powerful, successful effect of positive word-of-mouth (and positive press) well known.

Need some clarity about who is the intended/target audience for Kubuntu (as an OS for daily use).

[claydoh]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

As far as I know (though it is not actually spelled out yet - at the moment at least) Kubuntu isn't targeted an any particular audience - It's a general-purpose distro that tries to showcase KDE/QT. The goal eventually is to be 100% KDE/qt (assuming Koffice2 becomes a stable release and rocks)

So, again, there is no "target audience" really

[Qqmike]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

"It's a general-purpose distro that tries to showcase KDE/QT. The goal eventually is to be 100% KDE/qt..."

Not trying to banter, just playing with some ideas here, moderating, perhaps, but that statement (in quotes) is a classic counter-marketing statement, showcasing features (tech stuff) rather than benefits (how it helps the consumer). Whereas, marketing sells benefits (to consumers) over features. The feature "100% KDE/qt" has nothing to do with people, consumers, or benefits (to consumers).

But then, no one said this was about marketing, people, or benefits. In the extreme case, I suppose, as long as there are (only) enough participating consumers to test new releases, that might minimally justify the enterprise.

It bothers me somewhat not only because I've experienced some problems here with 8.10 (even at this late date and 256 megs of improvements), but I personally know good Linux folks who dropped Kubuntu and moved elsewhere for their serious work, notably Mint, but also some to Ubuntu (which makes sense, but weird sense imo).

No conclusions; no definitive position taken here on my part. Just typing thoughts out loud. Besides, I'm a happy consumer running solidly with 8.04 (and a dead 8.10 on dual-boot status).

[claydoh]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

but in the F/OSS world, there are no consumers or customers in the sense we are thinking. That of course just makes thing even muddier (and I am also typing out loud here, too )

In my experience and opinion, it doesn't matter which distro someone uses, and it doesn't really matter if people join in or leave for something different. You find something that fits you and what you want. If you don't like a direction or if a particular version doesn't work right, you go to the distro or version that does. And despite the concept of freedom and open source in software, most projects, applications, and distros are meritocracies, not democracies. Those that contribute to the project get the most say. Some, such as Mepis are more or less dictatorships (in a positive sense that is) and even Mark Shuttleworth is called sabdfl

But on the other hand as more and more people use Linux in general, something has to be said for the needs and expectations of the users and how to address their issues without them actually having to take part in the projects they use. For free. Created in the most part by volunteer efforts. Supported by more volunteer efforts. By volunteers. For FREE.

[Snowhog]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Well said. It's amazing how demanding some have become on a product they didn't have to pay for.

[pansz]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl.../01/24/1842218
Bring 3.5 back, at least as an option.

Linus does not use Kubuntu, so it makes no sense bring 3.5 back in Kubuntu.

Anyway, what Linus want is a "better KDE4", not "back to KDE 3.5"...

[Jonas]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

I can't compare KDE 3.x with 4.x since I'm quite new with Linux. Correct me if I'm wrong but KDE was used on Mandrake before wasn't it ?
I had a look the other day to see what Mandrake I was using when I first tried Linux and I think I tried Mandrake 7.x and that it then should have been KDE something ?

Anyway, I did try Ubuntu 8.4 and to be honest I didn't really like it but now when I decided to give Linux another chance and got Kubuntu 8.10 with KDE 4.12 I loved it. Compared to my previous experience more or less everything just works(for me and the way I like it).
Whatever KDE done, with or without bugs, and Gnome did or didn't, I've tranfered from M$ and enjoy the ride with KDE 4.12 at first now with KDE 4.2, and I have to add that this forum had a great impact on my stay on Linux, ubuntuforum is way to much info for a newbor ..erm, newbie

I'm telling many of my friends what a blast Linux is and many seem eager to give it a go, I would recommend Kubuntu 8.10 with KDE 4.x ... no matter if Linus likes it or not, I do like it, and they are my friends

[Qqmike]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

@claydoh, yes, very thought-provoking post you've made; makes perfect sense right through.

Issues are money (and time—they tend to be correlated); and the larger numbers of people who may be coming this way, toward Linux as an option, possibly, in the near future, very much larger numbers, who knows.

And money isn't always a solution to anything, not necessarily, and not per se; money can as we know, just introduce yet another twisting variable to a mix. We have members here who seem to think that the possibility of their check-in-the-mail means something. At best, naïve. Unless it's a very big check...
(anyone who's seen how academic grants work can attest (or testify!) to all sorts of, shall we say, amazing twists in the funding world)

--- “You find something that fits you and what you want. If you don't like a direction or if a particular version doesn't work right, you go to the distro or version that does.”

That's it, yes. As, it seems, many of our members do. I also keep in mind that with Linux, as long as you have a Live CD, you're in business, have access to basic services like Internet, email, and such, and can, at least, get things done and communicate. And with live persistent flash drives, there's an added aspect of freedom/independence and choice.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[kyonides]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Mmm, I'd say what we need is to get several distro Live CDs, let's say opensuse, mandrake, gentoo, kubuntu, whatever, and keep them at hand just in case something weird happens and you can't solve it in a week or two... It doesn't really matter when you can't use a single web browser normally if you can download and install many others, but things like no internet connection aren't as insignificant as the web browser problem...

We shouldn't ask for improvements, demand them, but even so we're in need of expressing our ideas, ideals and, of course, frustrations. If no one ever reports a single bug, one that couldn't be solved on a forum like this one due to lack of info on previous cases or something like that, it'd take much longer to discover those bugs and fix them.

Actually we're sometimes also used to get ignored by paid devs since there are also things we may have suggested that may never come true or would take years before they actually include the featured we were asking for long time ago. I mean, there's no real software carefully designed for us, the customers or people interested in a project, it'll always reflect someone else's ideas or ideals or "good practices" (depending on their actual point of view).

[Snowhog]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Actually we're sometimes also used to get ignored by paid devs...

You are aware, yes, that the developers are 'volunteers' working for the benefit of the Kubuntu community 'on their on time' and without compensation?

[pansz]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

As far as I know (though it is not actually spelled out yet - at the moment at least) Kubuntu isn't targeted an any particular audience - It's a general-purpose distro that tries to showcase KDE/QT. The goal eventually is to be 100% KDE/qt (assuming Koffice2 becomes a stable release and rocks)
So, again, there is no "target audience" really

Hmm, if kubuntu is just a community-based distribution it is safe to say "no target audience".

But the name Kubuntu has value way beyond that, it's not only "freedom" but also "towards humanity". many people believe it is the KDE version of ubuntu and everyone knows Ubuntu ranks 1st in the distrowatch for years, argumentatively becoming the most popular Linux distribution. Ubuntu targets to "average human being", so the kubuntu actually targets to those "average human being who needs KDE instead of GNOME".

Hence, if Kubuntu is designed inferior to Ubuntu, average users will think KDE is inferior, not the ubuntu. It does not seem to be the fault of upstream devs: in the official site, they clearly declared KDE 4.1 to be only "for early adopters".

Yes Kubuntu developers *do* have the freedom to choose anything to use, and they have the freedom to completely remove KDE3 in Intrepid, there's nothing to blame now. But that IMHO is an abuse of freedom and to some extent ruins the reputation of KDE and Kubuntu.

I'm not saying KDE3 should be back, no, we should go on with KDE4, but the above is what users thought and that is the fact.

[conholster]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Well said. It's amazing how demanding some have become on a product they didn't have to pay for.

Leo Fender, father of the electric guitar as we know it today (and rock 'n roll) used to say he disliked satisfied customers. Why? Because they didn't help him improve his work at all. I think this is the kind of attitude that is needed in FOSS, right now. Tripping on your toes around issues isnt helping anyone.

I get as pissed off about ppl talking crap about KDE or whatever just as much as anyone else. But I try to always remember that the world isnt what it is today because everyone settles for good enough or almost there.

If MS Windows was distributed free-of-charge how many of you would delete your Linux installs and start using that instead? Not me anyway...I'm here by choice and so is probably most of you reading this. Price didnt matter. If I had to pay for the first distro I tried I still would have tried cause I wanted to know what linux was, but I'd probably had taken some more time to research. Now I'd still pay for linux because I know it's good, but I definatly want it to get better.

If I sound like troll sorry for that, not my intention.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

but in the F/OSS world, there are no consumers or customers in the sense we are thinking. That of course just makes thing even muddier (and I am also typing out loud here, too )

In my experience and opinion, it doesn't matter which distro someone uses, and it doesn't really matter if people join in or leave for something different. You find something that fits you and what you want. If you don't like a direction or if a particular version doesn't work right, you go to the distro or version that does. And despite the concept of freedom and open source in software, most projects, applications, and distros are meritocracies, not democracies. Those that contribute to the project get the most say. Some, such as Mepis are more or less dictatorships (in a positive sense that is) and even Mark Shuttleworth is called sabdfl

Kubuntu is now a KDE4 cult. It's a matter of dogma for them, and you might as well understand that they're going to push KDE4 to the exclusion of everything. It's their right. If you don't like KDE4, this is the very last distro you should be using, and you might as well not complain about it.

[kitterma]

Re: Linus hates KDE 4, too.

Bring 3.5 back, at least as an option.

I'm sure it's lots of fun to sit back and criticize those of us who are doing actual work on the distro, but it's just not a realistic option. If you want 3.5 either go back to Hardy or switch to Debian Lenny. I'm reasonably certain writing snarky forum posts isn't going to make it happen.