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    Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

    In previous posts in this forum and other places I've noted the written desire of de Icaza to make Mono the API for Gnome, first by creating GTK# Mono bindings and later replacing GTK altogether. Both Gnome and Mono are under Novell's umbrella and Novell has "partnered" with Microsoft. The primary purpose of that partnership seems to have been to help Microsoft replace enterprise RH servers with SUSE servers, running without Master Browser capability so that they can be easily replaced with Windows servers sometime later. From Novell's market performance the partnership isn't doing very much for their bottom line. They are totally dependent on Microsoft's handouts.

    Recently we've been blindsided with the news that Nokia, keeper of the Qt API, has partnered with Microsoft too! The results have been equally disturbing. Nokia has sold the Qt commercial licenses to Digia, which has claims it will add to Qt's capability but has no obligation to share those improvements with Qt Free. Nokia has abandon the Qt built Symbian OS and reduced itself to the status of an OEM and gutted its software development division. Nokia is under no obligation by the Qt Free agreement to release Windows or Mac versions of Qt, which would destroy its "cross-platform" capability, an outcome which neither Mac nor Microsoft would loose sleep over. Nokia, accepting $1B and destroying any remaining smartphone market share they had, have also become totally dependent on Microsoft's handouts.

    This morning, a poster on this forum remarked, perhaps even complained, how Kubuntu sets on top of Ubuntu but "many of the things that work well in Gnome on Ubuntu do not work well in KDE on Ubuntu", and suggested he might consider returning to Gnome on Ubuntu. Recent postings by Mark Shuttlesworth, David Neary and Aaron Aseigo may explain why the inter-connectivity problems between Gnome and KDE are increasing.

    Canonical has made some recent decisions about Banshee (a Mono app) and Unity (Qt) that suggest that Mark Shuttlesworth was beginning to see a pattern too, and didn't want Ubuntu to be dependent on Mono, which is, essentially Microsoft's, API. Gnome will still be selectable on Ubuntu, as will be KDE, but Unity is going to be the default desktop regardless of which hardware you install Ubuntu on. The "Status Notifiers" a.k.a "appindicators" seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back. After several years of cooperation Gnome developers seem to be backing away from interoperability between Gnome and KDE. Considering whose is/was behind Gnome and Mono (de Icaza), and his love of all things Microsoft, and the results of Microsoft's money on Novell and Nokia (among others), and the potential affects on the API from which KDE is built, the pattern is there.

    What to do? What I've suggested before: fork Qt, strip its trademarks and branding, and released it under the LGPL as "Kt", and continue building KDE from it. IF Nokia doesn't keep significant annual releases of Qt going, or they don't keep the release difference between Qt Free and Qt Commercial to one or less, then Qt automatically goes to a BSD license, a result that Microsoft does not want. But, they can keep lawyers arguing for years about what is a "significant" release or what is the difference between two versions, an outcome that would hinder Qt progress in FOSS significantly. As I said before, having Nokia cancel Win & Mac versions of Qt and then tying the KDE Qt Free foundation up in court over definitions of terms in the Qt Free agreement would have the effect of stalling Qt R&D for years, making it difficult for KDE desktops to connect to new hardware or modified versions of old hardware, a trick Microsoft has been using for almost two decades against OS competitors.

    The dice have been cast. I predict that we are about to witness MAJOR changes in the Linux desktop development environment.
    "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
    – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

    #2
    Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

    Yea, we should fork QT

    I wonder what wxWidget will do with wxGTK? Will they drop it? create wxMONO?
    If QT does get forked, would they create wxKT; I think that would be nice :-)
    Registered Linux User 545823

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

      I think there may already be plans to fork qt, perhaps even to integrate it into kdelibs, or something along those lines. I would be surprised if there weren't, really.

      As and end user, I don't see anything falling from the sky, at least not yet.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

        While I think it's always good to keep options (like forkage) open, there is such a thing as premature/unnecessary forkage.

        Qt is available as GPL/LGPL, so it's not going to disappear. If Qt development actually slows down (something there is currently no indication of), then a fork should be an option to be considered, but there's no hurry to quickly fork "just in case".

        As far as BSD-license goes, it's not necessarily better for Qt (or worse for microsoft). With the current tri-licensing model, proprietary software vendors that wish to use Qt will either have to pay (Commercial License), or release the source of any changes/improvements made to Qt (LGPL), both of which benefit Qt development. With a BSD style license, both of these benefits would be gone. A BSD license would likely increase Qt adoption in the short term (among proprietary vendors), but would likely hurt Qt development in the long term.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

          Nice analysis!

          From my experience with both MS VS C++ and QtCreator, I found that QtCreator was better than MSVS C++ because it had everything that MSVSC had and better, richer and more extensive controls from which GUI's can be built, to say nothing of the price comparisons. The only thing needed that the Qt SDK doesn't supply is the compiler. For folks wanting to avoid buying MSVS there is the express edition of MSVS, but that depends on Microsoft's continued good will. I can see several proprietary outfits supplying their own inexpensive proprietary compiler and proprietary BSD version of Qt-SDK, severely affecting Microsoft's MSVS sales. MSVS costs hundreds ($500-$900+) while the BSD Qt-SDK could go for less than $200, or even $100, since most of the heavy lifting is already done.

          What I'd hate to see is the KDE Qt Free Foundation, or any other interested FOSS group, drag their heels so long that Qt development begins to lag too far behind either the commercial version of Qt or similar proprietary tools, or God forbid, Mono. With Microsoft's lawyers in the game their track record suggests all sorts of weasels wording evasions, legal tricks, foot dragging, injunctions, or outright chicanery, all of which they've used before, will be awaiting reasonable inquiries from KDE Qt Free..
          "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
          – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

            I just think Microsoft read my thread below and decided that yeah, Meego will be the "gateway drug" that sinks Windows in the near future, and thus moved to destroy it now before it was too late. Kudos to them I guess...

            http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3113732.0

            But, there is another Skywalker, so to speak, and that is WebOS. Hope is not lost!

            http://www.bgr.com/2011/03/09/webos-...r-says-hp-ceo/

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

              Originally posted by kjjjjshab
              I just think Microsoft read my thread below and decided that yeah, Meego will be the "gateway drug" that sinks Windows in the near future, and thus moved to destroy it now before it was too late. Kudos to them I guess...
              One has to keep in mind that Meego is more than "Nokia's planned mobile OS", meego is rather small in mobile markets...it's strengths, IMHO, lie probably in the future tablet markets. Meego is not dead just because Nokia chose to use something else in their smart phones.

              But, there is another Skywalker, so to speak, and that is WebOS. Hope is not lost!

              http://www.bgr.com/2011/03/09/webos-...r-says-hp-ceo/
              WebOS is not open source, even though it uses FOSS components. While it's good to have competition, I'd like to see more truly free software in the competition.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

                Originally posted by jpenguin
                ......
                I wonder what wxWidget will do with wxGTK? Will they drop it? create wxMONO?
                If QT does get forked, would they create wxKT; I think that would be nice :-)
                In an interview several years ago de Icaza mentioned what his goals for Mono and Gnome were. He envisioned replacing GTK & GTK# altogether with Mono. GTK# are GTK+ bindings to Mono that allow the use of GTK+'s GUI components to be used to create GUI dialogs, forms and windows in Mono apps so the user can interface with them. Twice in the past it was pointed out to de Icaza that there were patented GUI and database components in Mono that are NOT part of the EMCA 334&335 specs NOR listed in Microsoft's Community Promise. The second time, during the Great Mono Debate, following Microsoft's announcement of the Community Promise, which basically says they won't sue you if your use of Mono is restricted to the EMCA components and the few items listed in the CP, de Icaza blogged: "Astute readers will notice ..." that part of Mono are not in the ECMA, and that the Mono crew was busy "separating them" from the EMCA parts.

                Since then, rather than "separating" them, he has blatantly added WinForm, ADO and other non-EMCA components so that Mono doesn't really need GTK# to create GUI components to interact with the user. (Making Mono a HUGE patent trap, which seems to have been the plan all along, IMO.) The goal: to crate Gnome totally out of Mono, right down to doing all the talking with the kernel interface, libc6.

                wxWidgets is a well supported, extensive and powerful GUI API, built with C++. Cross platform, too. It has extensive bindings in Python, Ruby and other languages, and some API's like GTK+. It is in no danger of going away. But, it is not GPL:
                The wxWindows Licence is essentially the L-GPL (Library General Public Licence), with an exception stating that derived works in binary form may be distributed on the user's own terms. This is a solution that satisfies those who wish to produce GPL'ed software using wxWidgets, and also those producing proprietary software.
                ...
                The wxWindows Licence has been approved by the Open Source Initiative...
                The OSI is an organization started by Bruce Perens to represent the GPL to corporations. It's board hijacked it, Perens, resigned, and now the OSI "approves" over 60 "open source" licenses besides the GPL. To borrow a religious analogy, it's like having a bunch of trees invade the Garden of Eden and surround the Tree Of Life with some immitation clones which do not offer the four freedoms. Smoke and mirrors. IMO, it has done more damage to the GPL than any other organization besides Microsoft.

                IMO, the wxWidget API is not as well organized or unified as the Qt API is.

                "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

                  Originally posted by kubicle

                  One has to keep in mind that Meego is more than "Nokia's planned mobile OS", meego is rather small in mobile markets...it's strengths, IMHO, lie probably in the future tablet markets. Meego is not dead just because Nokia chose to use something else in their smart phones.

                  WebOS is not open source, even though it uses FOSS components. While it's good to have competition, I'd like to see more truly free software in the competition.
                  I know Intel and others are active with Meego, but I still think removing Nokia from its development was in Microsoft best interest.

                  I speak of WebOS in the context of my other post... users of it will say, gee maybe I should give desktop linux a chance since I am not tied down to MS products from my phone.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

                    Hi I ran across this essay about "the powers that be" and "breaking up" and "Gnome and KDE" so I thought I'd post it, it is a hook to lead people to read an "op-ed" about the "things going on between Gnome and KDE".

                    Don't know if it has a direct, or indirect, bearing but thought I would post it.

                    AND I note with some ..... commendation....that the blogger has a BIG "Open Respect" icon on the right hand side, which I have at another forum in my sig.

                    http://linuxgrandma.blogspot.com/201...ompletely.html

                    woodsmoke

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?



                      Valorie is also a Kubuntu user/supporter/member to boot, she is awesome all around

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

                        sooo...... what are your opinions about what she was discussing?

                        inquiring minds want to know!

                        woodsmoke

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?

                          Hi

                          I think the GNOME camp is not on the right path. And, like Mark S, I mean their leadership, not the majority of their community members. They didn't have the balls to kick De Icaza out of the project, and they have the nerve to bitch about Canonical, when it is only thanks to Canonical/Ubuntu that they became the most popular desktop environment (KDE was the leader a few years back). They are also refusing to cooperate on open standards.

                          On the other hand, there is little we can do. We need to stay open to standards, and hopefully Canonical will rely more and more on our technologies. LXDE and KDE mix perfectly, because KDE is doing the right thing. KDE and Unity will also play nicely. Let's keep up the good work


                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Are Gnome and KDE breaking up? Is a pattern emerging?



                            Originally posted by woodsmoke
                            sooo...... what are your opinions about what she was discussing?

                            inquiring minds want to know!

                            woodsmoke
                            After much thought (ooh, all of 10 minutes while working here in the restaurant ) I have to say..................

                            pretty much exactly what lmilano just said

                            I do not like Gnome, the desktop. It is personal preference only, nothing else. So generally I don't care what happens there.

                            Unity is interesting, but as a long time KDE user, the radical change is not so hard for me to get used to . Haven't tried Gnome Shell yet, so overall opinion will have to wait on who 'wins'

                            As to Canonical, I think they just need some PR help in how to do or announce some things, mostly.

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