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**ScottyK** · Jan 01, 2012, 12:14 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Do they still have SeaFair in Seattle with the Hydroplane races? I was in Seattle in the mid 80's with the family, and had a blast at SeaFair watching the races.

Also got to tour the USS Enterprise, and see some of the subs at Bremerton. Bonus!

**dequire** · Jan 02, 2012, 08:02 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by SteveRiley

OK, so where are you? Your profile says "Ohio." Maybe you can commiserate with Dibl!

Yepp. Northeast Ohio.

**SteveRiley** · Jan 02, 2012, 08:31 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by ScottyK

Do they still have SeaFair in Seattle with the Hydroplane races? I was in Seattle in the mid 80's with the family, and had a blast at SeaFair watching the races.

Yep, SeaFair is still here. Everyone looks forward to the Blue Angels -- although when WSDOT closes one of the two major highways across Lake Washington, it creates some major traffic headaches...

**erigais** · Jan 07, 2012, 09:33 AM

Re: Converted another one...

two of my sisters come over all the time and very often dominate my laptop while they facebook/web-browse/email/solitaire. Did they ever notice they were in another operating system? You bet! "I like this laptop, what is it? It runs alot faster than mine."

I wish I could convince them to switch, it would save me a headache of having to fix something every time i go to visit them.

**SteveRiley** · Jan 07, 2012, 09:05 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Let's put malware aside for a moment and focus only on user (in)competence. I would be interested in any data that compares the frequency with which a new Windows user borks their system compared to the frequency with which a new Linux user does.

For example: Clueless Larry reads something on Reddit, a post intended to be funny, but misinterprets the advice as something interesting to try. So he sits down and types what he read:

$ sudo -i
# rm -rf /*

There goes his entire system, into the bit bucket! No confirmation, no nothing.

(BTW -- don't do it yourself, either! Instead, watch me do it )

Try the same thing on a modern version of Windows. It takes more work to wipe out the whole hard drive.

<big-picture-section>

I'm aware that I write a fair amount about Windows on this here Linux forum. Do remember that Microsoft was my employer from 1998 to 2009, which was a very pivotal time for the organization. I witnessed some dumb decisions but I also saw a number of positive changes. Microsoft is not all evil, but they're mostly drawn that way...

Now let's add malware back to the discussion. Most malware targets people: carbon is a lot easier to infect than silicon. Regardless of whether Clueless Larry were sitting in front of Windows Live Mail or Evolution, if a pretty-print email promises to spice up his sex life and he goes link-click-crazy, the potential for Bad Stuff To Happen exists. evil.css that steals secrets out of Firefox on Windows is just as capable of stealing secrets out of Firefox on Linux. nasty.js buried inside an HTML email's <HEAD></HEAD> is just as capable of wreaking havoc on /home/larry as it is on c:\users\larry.

I know that many of you here support family members using Linux. That's wonderful! I wonder: did you simply install it and then depart? Or did you provide an hour or two of instruction? I'm guessing the latter. Well, the people you support are already at an advantage. When Clueless Larry walks into BustBuy and picks up his first PC -- which of course comes only with Windows -- he doesn't even get the luxury of that one hour of gentle tutoring. Plus he gets a machine that's built with much less loving care than the well-tailored Kubuntu boxes I know you all prepare for your friends and family.

OK, this little aside is probably long enough now. I am proud to be a member of KFN and honored to be part of its team of moderators. I'm not here to convert anyone! I just ask that we not let our pride swell too much.

</big-picture-section>

**GreyGeek** · Jan 08, 2012, 08:35 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by SteveRiley

...
For example: Clueless Larry reads something on Reddit, a post intended to be funny, but misinterprets the advice as something interesting to try. So he sits down and types what he read:

$ sudo -i
# rm -rf /*
...

He could do this from C:\ after opening a command shell:

Code:

deltree /y c&#38;#58;\

Or, with a little social engineering and some lying:

Code:

format C:\

and telll him that it "will index all the files of your computer" after they agree to the format. CluessLarry will do it in an instant.

**ardvark71** · Jan 08, 2012, 08:58 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by SteveRiley

Plus he gets a machine that's built with much less loving care than the well-tailored Kubuntu boxes I know you all prepare for your friends and family.

....and one that comes loaded down with as much promotional software and manufacturer "utilities" that can possibly be put on it.

I'm not complaining, of course. it's part of my job, at times, to clean all of this up for clients. I guess Microsoft saw a business opportunity with this problem, as well....as was noted in another thread by Steve, I think.

Regards...

**oshunluvr** · Jan 08, 2012, 09:53 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by erigais

two of my sisters come over all the time and very often dominate my laptop while they facebook/web-browse/email/solitaire. Did they ever notice they were in another operating system? You bet! "I like this laptop, what is it? It runs alot faster than mine."

I wish I could convince them to switch, it would save me a headache of having to fix something every time i go to visit them.

Best solution here is "tough love." He's what I tell my friends and family when they get viruses/malware/whatever: "Sorry, I don't use Windows anymore. I can't help you." They. of course, know I'm lying but accept it knowing that I'd be more than happy to install linux and give them a short operational lesson. The one exception to this is my 73 year-old mother who has convinced herself she's too old to learn anything new. Bedsides, she tolerates the abysmal speed of her windows machine in a way I never could.

Now my mother-in-law is a different story. Her old 486 Dell is happily humming along with Kubuntu 10.04 on it. I did the conversion about 1 year ago when her eldest Grandchild used it and got it infected with a virus for the third time in a year. About once a month I come over and do updates for her, but she really only does email, solitaire and looks at pictures of the Grandkids on it anyway. For her, all I had to do was put the icons on the desktop she uses and she's happy.

**DoYouKubuntu** · Jan 08, 2012, 11:29 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by SteveRiley

Let's put malware aside for a moment and focus only on user (in)competence. I would be interested in any data that compares the frequency with which a new Windows user borks their system compared to the frequency with which a new Linux user does.

For example: Clueless Larry reads something on Reddit, a post intended to be funny, but misinterprets the advice as something interesting to try. So he sits down and types what he read:

$ sudo -i
# rm -rf /*

There goes his entire system, into the bit bucket! No confirmation, no nothing.

The thing is, Clueless Larry doesn't have to actually *DO* anything to bork a windoze box. It does that on its own with great regularity, right?

Besides, brand-new-computer-user-Clueless Larry probably wouldn't be sitting at a command line on EITHER operating system, so it's unlikely he'd do the above on a Linux box. (I don't know the equivalent on M$, but he wouldn't be doing it there, either.)

I know that many of you here support family members using Linux. That's wonderful!

Yes and yes.

I've also converted family members who did it all themselves, from downloading an ISO to installing it and maintaining it, so I never had to do anything. All I did was show them Linux on my computers, explain its benefits over windoze, and convinced them to give it a try.

I wonder: did you simply install it and then depart? Or did you provide an hour or two of instruction?

In my dad's case (he was actually my father-in-law, but he WAS my dad--he died a year ago this month), I shipped him a computer that I had removed windoze from and replaced it with Lindows. I'd done a bit of research to find a distro back then that would be easiest for him to get used to and would, hopefully, require the least amount of support from me, since we were thousands of miles apart. I had my husband go over some basics with him, and then he went on his merry way. He was a [retired] math professor, so not exactly a slouch intellectually, but when it came to computers he was at the low end of users, like super-casual-computer-user.

In my mom's case, after her last windoze box died, I ordered an HP to replace it and as soon as it arrived I wiped its drive and put Kubuntu on it. I installed things I knew she'd want, like OpenOffice, SeaMonkey (for both browsing and e-mail), some image viewing apps, TONS of games, and then basically got up and said "there you go!" As with Dad, Mom is at the low end of computer users, but she managed without issue. (Now, that's not to say that she cannot screw up her computer! Remember that thread I started a while back about NEEDING to lock down a desktop? But that's all she was screwing up, just the desktop, not the innards of the OS.)

I'm not here to convert anyone!

I am. Well, not *HERE* necessarily, since I'm guessing that most people here are already using Linux.

But it's kind of like my personal mission in life to convert people from windoze to Linux. And I have no problem admitting that.

**Detonate** · Jan 08, 2012, 09:05 PM

Re: Converted another one...

I have, just this month converted two Windows users to Linux Mint. Both are very happy. Both are over 80 years old.

**ardvark71** · Jan 09, 2012, 12:54 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by oshunluvr

Now my mother-in-law is a different story. Her old 486 Dell is happily humming along with Kubuntu 10.04 on it.

Hi...

How on earth did you manage that?! Even Red Hat 7.2 would run sluggish on a 486, Windows 95 was close to the line depending on the amount of memory...

Regards...

**woodsmoke** · Jan 09, 2012, 03:49 AM

Re: Converted another one...

I think that possibly the code is more efficient nowadays than previously. Also if one does not do a lot of bling, doesn't run nepomuk, etc. that helps.

I've got it running nicely on an old Toshiba lappy, I don't use much bling but that isn't the point of the machine. I use it when I'm watching t.v. to monitor e-mails from students. etc.

woodsmoke

**GreyGeek** · Jan 09, 2012, 09:56 AM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by ardvark71

.....
How on earth did you manage that?! Even Red Hat 7.2 would run sluggish on a 486, Windows 95 was close to the line depending on the amount of memory...

....

From personal discovery I am finding out that if my mind and hand (mouse) can't work as fast as the machine it doesn't matter how slow it is.

**silviucc** · Jan 09, 2012, 04:37 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Here's the thing. I'm pretty adamant on the fact that if someone wants to use a computer they need to get educated on using it or not have the right to do so on the premise that if someone wants to drive a car they need to learn to do so and get a license.

Clueless Larry is a victim of computers being a commodity these days. I remember going to my mom's workplace in the 90's and they would have those giant beasts with magnetic tapes and some terminals. Guess what, only people that had previously received training were allowed to work on them. Just look at what is happening now. Almost any job requires interactions with computers and almost no company actually bothers to test the potential employee for computer skills. So Clueless Larry is allowed to remain clueless. The only time I actually got tested like that was because I was to work with foxpro and they need to know for sure I knew the basic commands to interact with their database. I ended up writing my little app on there as I have an aversion for repetitive jobs (ie. I'm effin' lazy).

So, I actually feel no pity for businesses that suffer because they employ people like Larry nor do I feel for Larry. I see governments all over the place "fighting" cyber-crime (only the part that affects the bottom line of some big corp.) but they do not pass a simple law like requiring people like Larry to get educated if they are to use computers, especially networked ones.

Ah, there... vented, I feel better now.

PS: Yeah I'm aware that the Congress in the US and parliaments in some other countries (as is the case with mine) actually do the "lawmaking"

**cavedweller** · Jan 09, 2012, 06:06 PM

Re: Converted another one...

Originally posted by GreyGeek

Originally posted by ardvark71

.....
How on earth did you manage that?! Even Red Hat 7.2 would run sluggish on a 486, Windows 95 was close to the line depending on the amount of memory...

....

From personal discovery I am finding out that if my mind and hand (mouse) can't work as fast as the machine it doesn't matter how slow it is.

That I can relate to that. I got into linux shortly after I got my first system with Win 95 on it. I had just gone through a divorce and funds were scarce. I didn't mind messing around in dos and a copy of power menu. but Win 95 was boring. When you can't afford to do anything and you live in the middle of a big wheat field in eastern Washington, redhat and a 486 DX 33 with a 20md hd, and 8mb ram, can occupy alot of hours. My mind and hands want to do stuff but more often than not the computer has always had to wait on me to get it together.

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