A boatload of questions:

[fdv]

(I'd have nine new posts, and that's probably a bit much. Here goes. Mods retitle if necessary please)

Hi folks, I'm Yet Another Guy Who Started Using Linux Because He Hates Windows. I actually have been playing with Linux since back when Caldera had a distribution, and because I toyed with Linux sometimes and mainly used Windows I developed a lopsided knowledge. There are things I know, so sometimes I ask a 'how' question, and other times I ask "I know _how_ but I never really understood why so can someone summarize it" questions. BTW, Kubuntu 6.10 though I doubt that's relevant.

I'd appreciate any help or insight I can get.

Question 1. Pasting text into the console
Why doesn't CTRL + V work, why do I have to use Edit, Paste? Is CTRL + V not universal among apps?

Question 2. Screwed up file associations
I mistakenly associated .DEB files with Kate. How do I fix that? .PY too. In fact the more I use the system, the more things I discover to my endless delight open with Kate.

Question 3. Something like the Windows Registry
Windows had a Registry. There are plenty of negative things that can be said about it, but it did have one thing going for it -- it was a central location for operating system tweaks (including fixing screwed up file associations). I know that there is no central way of doing handy things in the Linux variants, but is there a utility that will a. launch all of or b. somehow find and let me see a list of config files for me to pick from?

Q4a,b. Menu items
When installing a new program, invariably an icon for the program will NEVER be placed in the K menu.

Question 4a. Why the *^#%&? not?!?!?!!! (see also question 10)

Question 4b. How do I find the binary, create an icon, and add it to the K menu... (drumroll) WITHOUT using the console? (((without without without?)))

Question 5. Running programs
Why is putting an icon in a menu anathema? Every tutorial site that tells me how to install new software says to open the console and type the program's name to start it. WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT USING THE MENU?!?! Will people somewhere die because I click icons?

Question 6. A 'how' question. When I open the console, and I type a program name to start the program, how does the system know where to find it? What if I have more than one version? How come I don't have to type a path like I used to have to do in Windows? And yet... I also read somewhere that sometimes you DO have to tell Linux a path. When do I do this, and/or where would I edit a config file to tell it about a new path I made?

Question 7. apt-get update
I understand the concept of apt-get. It's the Advanced Package Tool. Before I officially ask "why the 'update' part of the command (it's to refresh the list, I know that) let me make an observation. Every tutorial puts this line before apt-get anything else. So why the heck doesn't the Adv. Pack. Tool just *assume* that it should do a refresh automatically? Would it be far off the mark to say that it seems a bit like having an automaker include separate switches for each headlight? We have two things to do -- apt-get update and then apt-get whatever the package you want is, so why two separate commands?

Question 8. Learning, for really real
Can anyone recommend exhaustive and graphical how-to sites?
There are Linux guides all over the Internet and I have seen an awful lot of them. They seem to fail noobs primarily for two reasons:

8a. No graphical how-to's, just "paste this text into the CLI and be done." Even sites that take GUIs into account, whether KDE or Gnome or xfce, will usually tell noobs to do something by pasting text that they quote into the console. (Now I know screenshots take up more bandwidth than a line of text, but if you're teaching about a GUI, why TF would you never show how to do something in that GUI?)

8b. Premature tutorial endings. I will read with great interest about how to do something. For example, I'll read about the organization of files. I read about the various directories like /usr, /var, /etc. Cool, now I'm getting somewhere. The tutorial will say I can browse with Konqueror. Great! I always wanted to know why I couldn't seem to see all of my directories and files at once instead of just my home directory.
Then, all of a sudden, BAM! That particular tutorial is over. It usually ends with something to the effect of "and there is certainly more you can learn about [whatever]!" Uh, I was hoping for a little more than "Konqueror can also be used to surf the web. Ok, tutorial's over! Bye!"

9. The future of installers
First, an aside as to why I am asking this. When I played with Red Hat back in 1999 or so, I recall having to mount my drives. One by one including the CDRom. I would ask in some forums if this was ever going to change. The answer was a resounding no, because there were too many inherent problems with automounting, and besides, what was so hard about writing a script to do it automatically? The prevailing wisdom at the time was that it was a pipe dream and really not even necessary.

Bring us to 2007. I (still) see three prominent methods of installing, including grabbing a tarred file, getting a DEB or getting a RPM. I see lots of disagreement over which is better. Will this be solved one day, like what we noobs used to complain about in 1999 that the experienced users said 'it ain't never gonna change?'

Thanks for any input.

[kubicle]

Re: A boatload of questions:

Question 1. Pasting text into the console
I opened Konsole. I got a Usability Tip: "did you know that if you use the \e[8;ROW;COLUMNt command you can resize the konsole?"

Neat! So I copied it from the dialog, clicked close to this tip, and pasted into the konsole. And (as I suspected but hoped would not happen), I got ^V. Where do I type this command? Can Linux still not paste text into the console (couldn't when I started toying around with Linux ~8 yrs ago)? BTW I know I can use edit, paste. What I'm asking is, why not CTRL + V, which seems otherwise universal?

Konsole uses different keyboard shortcuts, mostly because CTRL+(x) keys are often used in CLI applications for different tasks (and Ctrl+C is used to stop applications, for example). To paste in konsole you can use (Shift+Ins)...(The shortcuts are modifiable in konsole's settings, so you can make a Ctrl+Shift+V shortcut if you wish, for example). To copy/paste in konsole you can also select text with mouse and middleclick to paste selected. Or right-click with mouse and select copy/paste.

You can also resize (row/column) in konsole's settings menu

Question 2. Screwed up file associations
I mistakenly associated .DEB files with Kate. How do I fix that?

File associations dialog can be found in konqueror's settings (or the Control Center 'kcontrol')

Windows had a Registry. There are plenty of negative things that can be said about it, but it did have one thing going for it -- it was a central location for operating system tweaks (including fixing screwed up file associations). I know that there is no central way of doing handy things in the Linux variants, but is there a utility that will a. launch all of or b. somehow find and let me see a list of config files for me to pick from?

The Control Center is a pretty good 'centralized' application to edit settings (and even has a nice search feature). Kubuntu uses a toned down version of control center (called systemsettings) by default, but you can still use the original Control Center with 'kcontrol' (or add a menu item or panel applet for it)

Q4a,b. Menu items
When installing a new program, invariably an icon for the program will NEVER be placed in the K menu.

Question 4a. Why the *^#%&? not?!?!?!!! (see also question 10)

Question 4b. How do I find the binary, create an icon, and add it to the K menu... (drumroll) WITHOUT using the console? (((without without without?)))

There are basically 3 reasons why there is no menu-item:
1. The application is not meant to be run from the menu, like daemons (services) or CLI apps
2. Poor packaging (often with 3rd party apps)
3. Sometimes the menu item is added but the kmenu isn't refreshed immediately, you can refresh the menu numerous ways, including logging out, restarting kicker or opening the menu editor and saving.

You can add a menu item with the menu editor (right-click on k-menu and choose 'Edit Menu')

Question 5. Running programs
Why is putting an icon in a menu anathema? Every tutorial site that tells me how to install new software says to open the console and type the program's name to start it. WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT USING THE MENU?!?! Will people somewhere die because I click icons?

This is just a preference thing for many people, using katapult (a program launcher), the run dialog or even a konsole window is often faster than browsing the menu.

A 'how' question. When I open the console, and I type a program name to start the program, how does the system know where to find it? What if I have more than one version? How come I don't have to type a path like I used to have to do in Windows? And yet... I also read somewhere that sometimes you DO have to tell Linux a path. When do I do this, and/or where would I edit a config file to tell it about a new path I made?

As most program executables are put in standard directories, like (/usr/bin), linux will know where to find it. There is a Path variable defined for every user which lists the paths to check (and in which order)...you can view your path type 'echo $PATH' in the konsole. There is usually no need to edit your path, but you can do it globally by editing /etc/environment.

You have to tell linux the path if the executable is not installed in your $PATH directories (rare), or if there are several similarly named executables installed in your $PATH directories (also rare) and the one you're trying to run is not the first executable on your $PATH.

Question 7. KDE Launch bar
How do I add items to the launch bar? K Menu, System menu, Konqueror -- all handy. Kontact, I'd like to get rid of (not uninstall, just the menu item.) I'd also like to add Konsole to this menu (yes, I know it's under the K menu).

Right-clicking on the panel will let you add applications and applets etc., you can also drag-and-drop launcher icons into it.

Question 8. apt-get update
I understand the concept of apt-get. It's the Advanced Package Tool. Before I officially ask "why the 'update' part of the command (it's to refresh the list, I know that) let me make an observation. Every tutorial puts this line before apt-get anything else. So why the heck doesn't the Adv. Pack. Tool just *assume* that it should do a refresh automatically? Would it be far off the mark to say that it seems a bit like having an automaker include separate switches for each headlight? We have two things to do -- apt-get update and then apt-get whatever the package you want is, so why two separate commands?

Because sometimes you might wish to only update, or only upgrade/install or whatever. This is also a question of software philosophy, giving the user as much control as possible of what is done. It's easy to chain commands if you wish to perform an update before other actions...and even create your own command (alias) for such a task.

Question 9. Learning, for really real
Can anyone recommend exhaustive and graphical how-to sites?

For kubuntu, I'd recommend the kubuntu desktop guide:
http://www.kubuntu.org/documentation.php
(also available offline, k-menu>help)
and the ubuntu documentation wiki:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/

10. The future of installers
First, an aside as to why I am asking this. When I played with Red Hat back in 1999 or so, I recall having to mount my drives. One by one including the CDRom. I would ask in some forums if this was ever going to change. The answer was a resounding no, because there were too many inherent problems with automounting, and besides, what was so hard about writing a script to do it automatically? The prevailing wisdom at the time was that it was a pipe dream and really not even necessary.

Bring us to 2007. I (still) see three prominent methods of installing, including grabbing a tarred file, getting a DEB or getting a RPM. I see lots of disagreement over which is better. Will this be solved one day, like what we noobs used to complain about in 1999 that the experienced users said 'it ain't never gonna change?'

Both deb and rpm package formats are still going strong, so you'll probably going to see them in the future as well. There are projects going on that plan to breach the wall between them, so that maybe in the future you can easily install rpm files in deb distros and vice versa.

There are already conversion tools, like alien, but it can be tricky sometimes.

Linux is developing in such a rapid pace, that it's safer not to make any long term predictions

[aysiu]

Re: A boatload of questions:

Question 1. Pasting text into the console
Why doesn't CTRL + V work, why do I have to use Edit, Paste? Is CTRL + V not universal among apps?

It's not universal. The paste in the console is Shift-Insert. I think you'll find that the console behaves differently in a lot of ways.

Question 2. Screwed up file associations
I mistakenly associated .DEB files with Kate. How do I fix that? .PY too. In fact the more I use the system, the more things I discover to my endless delight open with Kate.

Same as Windows--right-click a .deb file and choose to open with and select to always open with the selected application.

Question 3. Something like the Windows Registry
Windows had a Registry. There are plenty of negative things that can be said about it, but it did have one thing going for it -- it was a central location for operating system tweaks (including fixing screwed up file associations). I know that there is no central way of doing handy things in the Linux variants, but is there a utility that will a. launch all of or b. somehow find and let me see a list of config files for me to pick from?

All your personal config files live in /home/fdv and the system-wide configuration files live in /etc. This isn't so different from Windows actually. Consider /home/fdv the same as C:\Documents and Settings\fdv

Q4a,b. Menu items
When installing a new program, invariably an icon for the program will NEVER be placed in the K menu.

Flatout wrong. Never? It's certainly not there all the time, but never...?

Question 4b. How do I find the binary, create an icon, and add it to the K menu... (drumroll) WITHOUT using the console? (((without without without?)))

Right-click the KMenu. The commands are usually in /usr/bin

Question 5. Running programs
Why is putting an icon in a menu anathema? Every tutorial site that tells me how to install new software says to open the console and type the program's name to start it. WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT USING THE MENU?!?! Will people somewhere die because I click icons?

I don't know what you want me to say. Use the menu. No one is saying you cannot use the menu. You're getting overly defensive.

Question 6. A 'how' question. When I open the console, and I type a program name to start the program, how does the system know where to find it? What if I have more than one version? How come I don't have to type a path like I used to have to do in Windows? And yet... I also read somewhere that sometimes you DO have to tell Linux a path. When do I do this, and/or where would I edit a config file to tell it about a new path I made?

Same as Windows. You can Windows+R and type

iexplore

You don't have to do the full path. Same for

mspaint

or

notepad

Install Opera in Windows, though, and you'll have to specify the whole path.

In both Windows and Linux, there are expected paths for executables and then there are times you need to specify the whole path.

Question 7. apt-get update
I understand the concept of apt-get. It's the Advanced Package Tool. Before I officially ask "why the 'update' part of the command (it's to refresh the list, I know that) let me make an observation. Every tutorial puts this line before apt-get anything else. So why the heck doesn't the Adv. Pack. Tool just *assume* that it should do a refresh automatically? Would it be far off the mark to say that it seems a bit like having an automaker include separate switches for each headlight? We have two things to do -- apt-get update and then apt-get whatever the package you want is, so why two separate commands?

Sometimes, especially if you have dial-up or limited bandwidth, you don't want to re-check the repository contents before installing software.

Question 8. Learning, for really real
Can anyone recommend exhaustive and graphical how-to sites?

I'd recommend the following:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu
http://doc.gwos.org

Bring us to 2007. I (still) see three prominent methods of installing, including grabbing a tarred file, getting a DEB or getting a RPM. I see lots of disagreement over which is better. Will this be solved one day, like what we noobs used to complain about in 1999 that the experienced users said 'it ain't never gonna change?'

Read this:
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4586903228.html

I think your reactions are a bit stronger than they need to be, and you also seem to be looking for differences between Ubuntu and Windows where they don't exist. There are plenty of differences, but that doesn't mean everything is different. Have fun playing around, and keep asking questions as they come up.

[igknighted]

Re: A boatload of questions:

I'll try to answer all of these, if I miss something let me know...

1) I'll see your ctrl+v and raise you one better... all you need to do in linux is highlight the text to copy it, then click the middle mouse button to paste it. I find it very intuitive, but if you dislike it you can probably change ctrl+v to be a universal copy/paste shortcut somehow (though I don't know how).

2) Your file associations are probably not screwed up, rather you are not telling your computer what program to open the file with. In the case of a .deb, the program is dpkg. To install a .deb, you need to either open a terminal and type

sudo dpkg -i package_name.deb

, or if you prefer a GUI, right click the file and select 'kubuntu package menu' and then 'install'

3) There is a project underway (that many are critical of) to write a registry for linux, but at the moment I do not believe one exists.

4) Many programs do create menu icons. I believe that almost anything installed via the debian/ubuntu repositories (which should be 99.9% of all software you need to install) will add itself. In the rare occasion you install software the does not, the binary is usually in /usr/bin. Sometimes a program will install to /opt or /home or a few other places, but that is the norm. To add a program to the menu, simply right click the k-menu and select 'menu editor' and use that tool. You will need the path to the binary found above, as well as the path to an icon if you want one.

To run a python program (.py), you cannot just execute the file (same with java .jar or .class files). You need to add 'python' before the executable (or java for java). Therefor, the command to run battleship.py is 'python battleship.py' You can do this in the terminal (easiest way IMHO) or by creating a launcher button or menu entry.

5) The terminal is a very powerful tool. In the new age of GUI everything, the terminal provides several advantages. a) the terminal gives you feedback. If you open a program via the terminal and it crashes for any reason, you will have error messages on the screen telling you what went wrong. You can google these or post them to get help. If you opened the program via a menu, all you have after a crash is your desktop background. b) Believe it or not, many times the terminal is faster. It takes getting used to, but I many times find myself using the terminal for lots of tasks there are perfectly nice GUI's for. To navigate a menu (or especially a file manager) takes time, and sometimes the terminal is more efficient. c) Since GNOME and KDE are both popular linux desktops (and there are many more, less popular ones), imagine how many instructions you would have to release with your program to tell each user how to use your program. The terminal entry is the same no matter what DE you use, so it is always the method in the documentation. This is also true of help forums, since there is usually a GUI and a terminal way, the terminal way is usually used because I can give you copy/paste commands much easier than walking you through a gui (click here, click there etc.)

6) I think the rule of thumb is if its in /usr/bin you dont need a path, but anywhere else you do. I could be wrong here. A path is never wrong though, so it doesn't hurt to add it.

7) It takes time to hit every server, which is what update does. If you know that you have updated recently, you can skip the apt-get update. I would say any update in the previous week would be more than sufficient, unless you are looking for a very newly added program.

8) I recommend www.psychocats.net. Aysiu is a mod at ubuntuforums.org, and I have found his tutorials exceptional. If you just want a look around the GUI, I dont know where to point you. I learned that via exploring.

9) I just read a news article that a universal system could be implemented as soon as sometime next year (2008). Of course, then it would take time to distribute packages and such, but I think that as people realize the differences are petty this will happen. I wouldn't bet on it really coming in '08, but it will come someday.

Hope I answered all your questions, just post back if I was too vague somewhere. Good Luck!

[monte48lowes]

Re: A boatload of questions:

Question 5. Running programs
Why is putting an icon in a menu anathema? Every tutorial site that tells me how to install new software says to open the console and type the program's name to start it. WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT USING THE MENU?!?! Will people somewhere die because I click icons?

Speed baby, speed. I can Alt-F2 'inkscape' faster than you can click, click, click (dang, wrong sub-menu) click, click.

8)
Mike

There are many new windows programs that perform the same function.

[fdv]

Re: A boatload of questions:

Thanks, guys, I appreciate all of the feedback.
In general I think one of the problems of Windows guys switching is that since Windows does some things in a really stupid way, and we master those, we figure we can learn anything, which might be true, but we forget:
1. that it took a long time to learn Windows, not overnight, and
2. just because we read Linux is better doesn't mean it isn't ideosyncratic in it's own right.

As I implemented these tips, I do find that KDE/Linux does a lot of things that simply make sense. Some things are still counterintuitive, though... I am about to post one as a new topic but I wanted to thank everyone for the input. Especially grateful for insights that I had NO clue about, such as

All your personal config files live in /home/fdv and the system-wide configuration files live in /etc.

or

To run a python program (.py), you cannot just execute the file (same with java .jar or .class files). You need to add 'python' before the executable (or java for java).

or

I think the rule of thumb is if its in /usr/bin you dont need a path, but anywhere else you do.

Glad this crowd goes beyond the 'here's how to fix it' and into the 'here is why' 8)