Need a lesson in package managers

[gshockxcc]

I just upgraded to Jammy (22.04). I'm really happy with it, btw, thanks to all who suggested that I do so. I waited until the installation was complete before installing updates. I like to use Konsole to do the updates, but I always run Discover to change the software sources and select the best server. The first time I did this, I got an error when entering my password. So I used Konsole. Fortunately, Discover gave me the sudo command to use. Can't recall it now, and didn't save it.

When the updates were finished in Konsole. I refreshed Discover, and there were still updates. I re-ran the

sudo apt-get update

and

sudo apt-get upgrade

again in Konsole, and the same packages in Discover weren't installed. I had to revert to Discover to finish installing the remaining packages. I don't understand why.

In other posts I have here, Muon has been mentioned. What's the difference between Muon and Discover?

These are related to other questions I'm asking about installing a VPN server, and I don't understand how everything is connected. Why would Muon have any greater benefit for installing packages to support a VPN server than Discover?

[Snowhog]

Use sudo apt full-upgrade instead.

[Beerislife]

I usually do it with one command since I'm lazy! 🤣

sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade

[kc1di]

Just to add to the confusion I most of the time install synaptic and use it for most of my package management. I'm just use to it.

sudo apt install synaptic

[Schwarzer Kater]

[…]
In other posts I have here, Muon has been mentioned. What's the difference between Muon and Discover?[…]

One obvious difference between Discover and Muon (and Synaptic) is that Discover also can update your Snaps and Flatpaks and the other two can't.

Both Muon and Synaptic have been written as a graphical frontend for APT, whereas Discover uses packagekit, iIrc, and can also be used in combination with other CLI package managers like dnf, zypper or pacman - also with Flatpaks and Snaps.
Don't throw stones at me, but I would say Muon roughly is equal to Synaptic, but it is written based on Qt instead of GTK.

[Snowhog]

Discover is a Software Store while Muon and Synaptic are Package Managers. Think of Discover as being an auto dealership where you can only browse their selection of ready to drive vehicles, while Muon and Synaptic also have parts and pieces.

[claydoh]

Discover is a Software Store while Muon and Synaptic are Package Managers. Think of Discover as being an auto dealership where you can only browse their selection of ready to drive vehicles, while Muon and Synaptic also have parts and pieces.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is perfect. A 'package manager' is quite literal here. Handling actual packages.
Packages do not necessarily involve desktop software applications at all in most cases. Kernels, drivers, system libraries, system services, , your desktop environment, and all your command line programs are installed/managed as packages, as well as your desktop applications

Plasma's Discover focus specifically on GUI desktop applications and appearance items, mainly, plus installing system updates. Gnome Software does the same sort of thing as well on other desktops.
This is what most people need, much of the time.

Apt, and its gui front-ends are for more advanced usage needs and wants. Mainly, for most people it is much more informational. You see exactly what is being updated, down to the last individual component. This sounds like overkill, but it really isn't.

When the updates were finished in Konsole. I refreshed Discover, and there were still updates

Now, since Linux has this need to be confusing, and add confusions on top of that, the issue here is that there are different types of application packages nowadays. Apt only handles the native Ubuntu/Debian .deb packages.
But now Ubuntu have their new-ish self-contained Snap packages, and there is also another called Flatpak
These are NOT handled by apt whatsoever.
What you are seeing are very likely applications using the Snap format, since this is what Ubuntu uses and promotes.
snap refresh can be used on the command line for this.
At the very least, Firefox comes installed as a Snap in Ubuntu now. You should see a label for the type of package an application is, if it is only available via the Snap store, or as a choice if it happens to be available via both native packages as well as snaps/flatpacks





Also, if you have installed any KDE theme or widget related items, these can show in Discover as well. These are not managed by apt, either, and have no command line method of updating currently.

[gshockxcc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is perfect. A 'package manager' is quite literal here. Handling actual packages.
Packages do not necessarily involve desktop software applications at all in most cases. Kernels, drivers, system libraries, system services, , your desktop environment, and all your command line programs are installed/managed as packages, as well as your desktop applications

claydoh, great explanation. Thank you. For me, for right now, you're absolutely spot on, I don't need much more than visibility to see what's being updated or installed. The main focus for me is to learn from what Linux is doing and understand why.

For example, I ran

apt list --upgradable

this morning, and I got this list:

python3-software-properties/jammy-updates,jammy-updates 0.99.22.5 all [upgradable from: 0.99.22.2]
software-properties-common/jammy-updates,jammy-updates 0.99.22.5 all [upgradable from: 0.99.22.2]
software-properties-qt/jammy-updates,jammy-updates 0.99.22.5 all [upgradable from: 0.99.22.2]
ubuntu-advantage-tools/jammy-updates 27.13.3~22.04.1 amd64 [upgradable from: 27.9~22.04.1]

Using Snowhog's recommendation, I ran

sudo apt full-upgrade

, which returned the following:

The following packages have been kept back:
 python3-software-properties software-properties-common software-properties-qt ubuntu-advantage-tools
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
​

This is not an attempt to hijack my own thread. I just don't understand why some packages are installed and some aren't.

[Snowhog]

I just don't understand why some packages are installed and some aren't.

Staged updates. A ‘new’ schema on how and when packages are to be updated and made available for users. It’s the ‘new normal’.

[claydoh]

Staged updates. A ‘new’ schema on how and when packages are to be updated and made available for users. It’s the ‘new normal’.

Linux has this need to be confusing, and add confusions on top of that,

And oddly, it is stodgy Debian that created this schema.
I think Ubuntu makes more obvious use of it, though. And of course you only notice the staged updates if you update on the command line. Use the updater, and you never know, since there is nothing actually wrong.

TMI Time:
https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/about...phased-updates
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1431...buntu-use-them
https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu...d-updates.html

[jlittle]

Staged updates. A ‘new’ schema on how and when packages are to be updated and made available for users. It’s the ‘new normal’.

AKA "phased updates".

Adding to confusion is that many of the tools have not been updated to be "phased update" aware. For example apt list --upgradable will list held back packages. To get the proper picture one can use the clumsy apt full-upgrade --dry-run.

[Snowhog]

AKA "phased updates".

Doh!



But again, they could be staged.

[claydoh]

Adding to confusion is that many of the tools have not been updated to be "phased update" aware

I missed adding that bit. And sort of strange that they didn't add something for this.
I imagine it will come sooner or later.

But held back packages are not necessarily being phased. Janky PPAs and general repo shenanigans by the user on top of distro package bugs all can lead to this.

The only sure fire way is to use apt policy on one of the packages:

$ apt policy grub-efi-amd64-bin
grub-efi-amd64-bin:
  Installed: 2.06-2ubuntu10
  Candidate: 2.06-2ubuntu14
  Version table:
     2.06-2ubuntu14 500 (phased 47%)
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64 Packages
 *** 2.06-2ubuntu10 500
        500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-security/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     2.06-2ubuntu7 500
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages
​

And straying further off-topic (who, me?)
While Apt is Debian of course, the feature may be more of an Ubuntu focused one. It IS part of apt now, but Debian itself seems to have no docs about it or mentions, and change logs are somewhat vague. Ubuntu has had some form of 'phased' updates since at least 2013-ish iirc, and much of the direct built-in functionality we are seeing is pretty recent.

Of course, if thei IS an Ubuntu job, we kinda know how this might go........

[Schwarzer Kater]

A bit off topic, but another tip concerning (for example) upgrading your system:

If you like to use the CLI (and bash) you might want to create a file named ".bash_aliases" within your $HOME directory (for example with Kate - it is invisible due to the "." at the beginning) with a content like:

# apt
alias upda='sudo apt update && apt list --upgradable'
alias fuup='sudo apt full-upgrade'​

# flatpak
alias flup='flatpak update'

# snap
alias snup='sudo snap refresh'​​

# update everything
alias upall='sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade && flatpak update && sudo snap refresh'

Do a source .bashrc afterwards and you can type upda instead of sudo apt update && apt list --upgradable in the future.
Those are just examples - you can choose nearly any combination of characters you like between "alias " and "='command(s)_that_shall_be_executed'" (good to avoid commands that already exist as an alias name, though).

"The sky is the limit", but check that you don't have duplicate entries in the files ".bashrc" and ".bash_aliases" otherwise the result can be not what you intended.

PS: see alias --help for further explanation.