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**aysiu** · Mar 11, 2006, 03:51 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

I'm giving you some links with more in-depth explanations if you have the patience to read them, but here are the short answers:

1. Out-of-the-box, no operating system is easy to install and configure, except maybe OS X because the hardware and software are designed to go together.

Most users do not install their own operating systems. They buy a computer with an operating system preinstalled.

Read more here.

2. You don't need to know cryptic commands just to get Kubuntu installed. You need to know cryptic commands to configure it afterwards. Ask questions, and you'll get documentation.

If you don't like cryptic commands, consider installing a more GUI/ point-and-click distro like PCLinuxOS, Mepis, or Linspire.

3. The sudo security model is the same one that Mac OS X uses, and it's the best one I've seen. You're limited to editing files in your /home directory. Anything outside of that, you need to sudo to in order to get temporary administrator access to modify.

Read more here:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/permissions
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo

**askrieger** · Mar 11, 2006, 03:56 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

DON'T PANIC!!! It's not as hard as it looks to you right now.

First a little philosophy. M$ employs thousands of people to make sure that nearly all personal computers come with Windows already installed. As a result most software manufacturers and virtually all hardware manufacturers spend their money making their products work with Windows. That's why it looks so easy! You paid a couple of hundred dollars extra when you bought your computer and even more for all the Windows software you bought just to make it look easy. If someone told you, she could make a linux distro as easy as Windows for a mere thousand dollars, you'd tell them they were crazy. It's been tried, (for a lot less than a thousand bucks). So, if you want to use linux, you're going to have to face the fact that, even though we (the linux community) do the best we can, we just don't have the backing and support to make setting up linux as easy as just turning on your computer. All the people who participate in this and other Linux forums, chat rooms, mailing lists and blogs are UNPAID volunteers.

That said, (I hope I haven't completely ticked you off and driven you back onto the dark side). I'll take on your questions.

1) Your dialup modem isn't what we called a modem in the old days. Namely a piece of hardware that provided an interface between the computer and the telephone line. It is a software modem with nothing moer than a glorified transformer and a phone jack. That's why it's so cheap. It uses the computers CPU to drive it. Unfortunately, the manufacturer is too hard pressed by his competitors to worry about writing software for linux. So he provides a Winmodem. Volunteers have written linux software to make SOME winmodems work. Google for "linmodem". There is a site that gives you names, model numbers, and directions. You may be favorably surprised.

2) If Ubuntu gave you unlimited system configuration power without making you think about what you were doing at this point in your knowledge of linux you'd probably screw up your system irreparably. Be grateful. Please read the post at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo/.

3) Are you sure that you are typing your user password EXACTLY the way you first set it i.e. capital and lower case letters exactly where they were? It's too late now, but I normally use an easy to remember but not obviuos password i.e. "2*B||!2*B", the famous line from Hamlet in the C programming language.

4) If you'll look on this website you'll find that the Kubuntu project is trying hard to improve the user documentation. If you don't like what they've come up with so far. WRITE A POST AND TELL THEM SO RIGHT NOW, before it's too late.

**StoneAgeMoron** · Mar 11, 2006, 05:08 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Thanks, Aysiu and askreiger!

Although I had already read that link explaining RootSudo, I had missed the first note about the password only being remembered for 15 minutes. That seems odd. Why forget it after 15 minutes? My bet is that more than a few new users have simply deleted Kubuntu the first time they try using sudo on the grounds that the sudo command doesn't work.

Also, askreiger, does changing the time format really run the risk of screwing up the system? Couldn't this feature be safely implemented in a lower security environment? I'm not arguing, I just don't understand why time format is so critical.

Regarding the winmodem/hardware modem issue, I eliminated the models clearly marked as requiring Windows. Unfortunately there were no boxes marked THIS IS A HARDWARE MODEM. Actually there were just a bunch of three letter acronyms -- HCF, HSF, RTS, CTS, ASF, DFT, etc. -- as if that actually meant something and would answer the hardware vs. software modem question QED! I finally bought a PCI modem that had the Penguin logo on the box. IDW: It Didn't Work. See, anyone can play the cryptic acronym game!!!! I also have an old USB (there we go, again!) modem that apparently uses a Conexant chipset that might be more promising for the Linux environment, but the website doesn't support the DFT system - whatever that is!! Probably NFG for Linux either.

While I like the look and feel of Kubuntu, it does not seem to be optimized for a single-user system used for mundane tasks. Am I right in assuming that it could take weeks or months for a newbie to get the basic OS running correctly, including dial-up internet access?

I did read one thread on these forums about the viability of using Linux without internet access. The consensus was that it was a virtual requirement. It seems counterproductive that that realizing this requirement seems to be so difficult, when so many bells-and-whistles features that seem, to me, to be unnecessary are standard in the default Kubuntu installation.

Thanks again.

**Nirvana** · Mar 11, 2006, 05:29 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

http://wiki.ubuntu.com
http://kudos.berlios.be
(in konsole) man <appname>

Also, as for "up and running":
automatix -> sets up multimedia codecs, and Firefox and all that jazz (but frowned upon by many as "unsafe"
EasyUbuntu -> COMING VERY SOON FOR KUBUNTU!! (does not work yet) btw: I asked the author, he said because in France, they have Demonstrations (I assumed it was like exams/SATs/something really big) and he is busy
EasyKubuntu -> less feature-filled than automatix... but safer (apparently*)

* I Have no idea why automatix is frowned upon by the Ubuntu community... it's really not that bad... as long as you use it on a fresh system. If the system is not fresh, that -f (--force) command could cause problems... but even then, just a simple re-install of kubuntu-desktop will fix most problems.

**aysiu** · Mar 11, 2006, 05:31 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

You don't need a password to change the date and time format. I just tried it. Something's wrong with your installation.

And, no, to get basic functionality out of Kubuntu, it doesn't take weeks or months. It takes a day. To get it to work exactly the way you want it, yes, you would have to invest at least two weeks, I'd guess.

Modems and wireless are kind of a crapshoot with Linux, to tell you the truth. Ethernet is almost a dead-on surefire. Unfortunately, I don't see much about hardware compatibility with dial-up, but there is a list for wireless and wired:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport

I guess it all depends on what you consider basic. If just internet, email, and light word-processing are your thing, it's actually designed precisely for that purpose "out of the box."

I still contend that something's wrong with your installation. I've never had to enter a password to change the date and time format. Now, of course, to change the actual date and time, you do need a password, but you need that for Windows too (on Windows, only the administrator can change the time).

**mchuskie** · Mar 11, 2006, 07:57 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Originally posted by StoneAgeMoron

Do these commands ever work as described in documentation or books?

I can't find any meaningful documentation for this Kubuntu command line babel in the help files installed with the distro. Does everybody else REALLY know all this jibberish before even installing the system? Also, why does everything need to be so cryptic? Why not use easier to remember command names. After the first 500, three-letter acronyms become hard to remember!

Almost every command you could possibly use at the commandline has documentation with it. Now, here's something easy to remember: if you want the manual for a command, you type

$ man command

No, often people don't "REALLY know all this jibberish before even installing the system". Although this is vacuously true (since it's not 'jibberish', any more than Mandarin Chinese is gibberish), people don't know Linux commands before they've used Linux... they ask. They learn. See later.

The reason sudo expires after 15 minutes is because it's not the same as logging in as root. If it didn't expire, then a user who uses sudo for something would then have root access until the end of their session. I'd much rather type a password again than accidentally delete /etc because my finger slipped and I'd used sudo this morning.

As for you being "computer literate" - I have no doubt this is true, but you could be the lead programmer at Redmond and still have to ask for help setting up a Linux system. Why? Is Linux super-hard to set up and use? No. It just isn't Windows. Things are done differently. Kubuntu isn't a "free Windows", it's a free Linux. Using Linux actually teaches you a lot more about computers than Windows ever will. But you have to learn! What you're saying is like learning French, then going to Spain and expecting to be able to speak Spanish fluently.

Lastly this morning, say you want a modem that "will not require ANY...setup from those commands". I'd like to see you find one modem (sorry, that is, modulator/demodulator) that works on any OS (sorry, that is, Operating System) without some form of setup. I've tried other Linux distros (sorry, that is, distributions) in the past, and I found Kubuntu blissfully easy to get installed and working to a satisfactory level. Getting it set up *just right* takes longer.

**askrieger** · Mar 11, 2006, 08:31 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Everybody seems to be ganging up on you, so I almost didn't reply for fear you'd think I'm joining the gang.

Basically, you've touched a nerve here. Ubuntu is DESIGNED to be an easy, user-friendly linux distribution. KDE is DESIGNED to be easier to use than GNOME which is the other linux graphical user interface (it's used on Ubuntu, as distinct from Kubuntu). You'll note that the people who responded to you have all submitted a lot of posts which took a lot of time. They did that because they are DEDICATED to helping new users. We used to be new users! We know how it feels. So when someone seems to deprecate our efforts, not to mention those of a guy who's putting megabucks of his own money into this distribution, I hope you can see how we might get a little frosty, but you'll notice that everyone of those posts, offered some genuine advice on your problems.

I'm sorry you went off and spent money buying another Winmodem. Please, please, go to the Linmodem site at
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Linmodem-HOWTO.html Learn what to do and how to do it (including what kind of a modem to get). Return your useless purchase, if it is useless, and get busy.

Or, don't, as one of the great linux forum moderators of all time, M.D. Watts said, "If you have to ask why to use Linux, you probably shouldn't."

**StoneAgeMoron** · Mar 12, 2006, 12:15 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

I NEVER felt ostracized, or like forum members were "ganging up on me!" To the contrary, I appreciate the help that you have all so freely given me. You have all been kind.

But, the difference is that a computer, to me, is an APPLIANCE. A "productivity tool." Few of us understand how our refrigerators work, and all we really need to know is that they make things cold. If we bought a new fridge on the recommendation of some trusted firends, only to find out that you needed to take it apart and change major components for it to actually make things cold, we would justifiably feel that we had been cheated. If a friend GIVES us a used fridge -- free -- we go into the deal knowing that it will probably need some improvements, but we still have to maintain some perspective as to how far we are willing to go to repair the free damaged goods. All of us would agree that basic functionality, making things cold in the case of a fridge, is a reasonable goal. After your food spoils, there's no turning back.

I guess I don't understand exactly why Linux can't yet do things as basic as recognize a modem. I guess I don't understand why a manufacturer can't get a clue and make a new model for the growing Linux market. Isn't email and web access probably the most basic goal of virtually every computer user? Can you see that this inability seriously damages a new user's productivity?

During my brief encounter with Linux, it strikes me that the whole project might have lost a clear focus on priorities. There are many developers working on applications with a lot of bells and whistles, but few seem to be working to patch the big, gaping holes in Linux usability.

That said, all of you have been very helpful and gracious. I appreciate your efforts to make me feel welcome. In the final analysis, I have deleted Kubuntu, and won't bother you again.

**kubicle** · Mar 12, 2006, 12:53 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

First of all, nice of you to take the time to write the feedback, always better to share why you deleted kubuntu/linux than just delete it.

Although I don't agree with all your criticism, I can certainly understand it's possible to feel the way you do, if you're new to linux and kubuntu.

Personally, I would not recommend the installation/administration of a linux system to someone that just uses a computers as appliances and doesn't at least *want* to know how they work and 'what's under the hood'. I know there are many people like that, I myself think like that about cars, for example, and I have nothing against such people.

People that wish to just use computers can certainly use linux, I have installed kubuntu on my 60+ mother's system and she uses it quite happily for her browsing and emailing, but I wouldn't dream of asking her to install/manage the system on her own. (When she used windows, I had to visit at least twice a month to fix things she had messed up with it...actually I think she did that on purpose to get me to visit :P).

Nowadays she can't really break anything...and I can do the upgrading/managing remotely...I still visit my old mother, dont worry

I applaud your adventurous nature that made you try Linux...perhaps you can have another go in a year or two, linux will improve it's usability for sure, though I doubt it will ever be 'like a refrigerator', since it's imposible to maximize both convenience and security.

**aysiu** · Mar 12, 2006, 07:09 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Originally posted by StoneAgeMoron

But, the difference is that a computer, to me, is an APPLIANCE. A "productivity tool."

Then, I would highly advise against installing an operating system. Always buy your computers with operating systems preinstalled. If you want Linux, go to a Linux vendor like http://www.system76.com or http://www.koobox.com. If you want Windows, go to http://www.dell.com or http://www.hp.com. Do not install your own operating system if you want an appliance.

I guess I don't understand exactly why Linux can't yet do things as basic as recognize a modem. I guess I don't understand why a manufacturer can't get a clue and make a new model for the growing Linux market.

Manufacturers don't necessarily view Linux as a growing market. They make hardware primarily for Windows. The fact that Linux works with most hardware is actually quite a pleasant surprise. And I don't think most Linux users use dial-up modems, to tell you the truth. I use ethernet broadband, and Ubuntu recognized it right away. I had to do no configuring.

Isn't email and web access probably the most basic goal of virtually every computer user? Can you see that this inability seriously damages a new user's productivity?

Can you see that this isn't the fault of the operating system? Can you see that dial-up modems are not the standard these days unless you're in a rural community? Do you realize that if you take a Windows XP installer disk and put it on a random computer (perhaps one you've built yourself) that many things will not work out-of-the-box, and you'll have to do a lot of research to figure out what drivers you need and where to get them?

During my brief encounter with Linux, it strikes me that the whole project might have lost a clear focus on priorities. There are many developers working on applications with a lot of bells and whistles, but few seem to be working to patch the big, gaping holes in Linux usability.

Once you've developed, then you can start badmouthing the developers. You obviously know nothing about what's involved in creating an operating system.

**SinisterSole** · Mar 13, 2006, 12:00 AM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Man, looks like another person is going to shell out big bucks for an appliance...oh thats right, it was UPNP that got microsoft backdoor security problems. I have been MS restricted for long enough and decided to go for the gusto 3 weeks ago. True that MS is more user friendly "out of the box" but my concern was security. I have reinstalled Win98 so many times on the same machine due to bugs it isn't even funny and don't even get me started on XP. With all the help from this forum and some of my screw-ups, you all have fed my curiosity for Linux and it has yielded excellent results. I think that there are 2 groups of computer users out there. One that wants it to work at what ever the cost (ie. security, stability) and one that makes it work at what ever the cost (ie. kdesu, sudo). Good work guys. Remember that it is easier to blame OS programmers for bugs then it is to try to fix them. Peace

**warbuckle** · Mar 15, 2006, 10:52 AM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

Hello all,

gotta jump in here,

My observation is:

there are hundreds of nix distros out there, some are easier to setup winmodems / wireless cards, onboard wireless chipsets ets etc..........if a particular distro is known for "good" support for hardware why is it not picked up by the other makers of open source OS?.....

Example:

I have an Atheros 5211 onboard wireless chipset in my laptop, I have gotten 4 or 5 distros to work with this chipset, Vector and Foresight are 2 of them, some take a bit longer but if it goes past 1 hour then I switch to another distro. If something works on 1 then it "should work on another",it is afterall open source software..........Wireless is very common these days, whether its a card or an onboard arrangement, so if it works on one distro, it should work on most. ....hint hint developers.......An example of the basics for a system would include internet access, whether its wired / wireless / cable etc, it should work, or be setup without too much fuss, again that hour rule..........like a company that makes cars looking at another companies models and saying "hmmmm..we should put that on our model"........ie Atheros onborad chip support..........if we want people to come over to nix and help sread the word we should not castrate folks for wanting to use "appliances", that it the ultimate goal of many nix's aimed at the "Desktop market"........so that a person not so tech savvy can install / setup, and use it........

I find the support for Kubuntu spotty at best, I like a lot of things about this distro but throwing a few commands at a new user and letting them fill in the blanks is not going to entice more people to use this distro or any of it's other flavours............

I liked this quote "Or, don't, as one of the great linux forum moderators of all time, M.D. Watts said, "If you have to ask why to use Linux, you probably shouldn't."

I thought we were all spreading the word on nix, there is no difference between "putting the word out to possible converts, or those possible converts asking why they should switch"..........

Will

**askrieger** · Mar 15, 2006, 11:52 AM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

The quote from M.D. Watts was a joke when he said it, and a joke when I quoted it.

It does contain a germ of truth, however. At this point in time, Linux still requires more hands on effort to install and tune than does windoze or OS X. The first paragraph of my earlier post in this thread starting with the words "Don't Panic" tries to explain why Linux requires more effort.

I'm not Mark Shuttleworth, or one of the developers of Vector or Foresight so I can't speak to why they chose to work on accomodating or not accomodating any particular piecce of hardware. Nor can I explain why the Ubuntu organization has not incorporated the Atheros driver yet.

What you could do is to write to the managers of Atheros and tell them that unless and until they open their driver software to the Linux community, you are not going to buy any more of their products. If enough people do that, either they'll open their driver software (like HP), release a closed Linux driver (like Nvidia and ATI), or lose business. If you had the cash and time, and don't mind physical confrontations, you could buy a share of stock, go to their corporate annual meeting and make a speech telling them to open their drivers.

**warbuckle** · Mar 15, 2006, 02:22 PM

Re: Is all this complexity really necessary?

ah........thanks for all of that.

Perhaps you could answer a short question for me then.

Why does the ATheros chipset show up and be configureable under the LiveCD and not the install CD?.....

any good pointers

? Anybody

......developers

.......users

.........pundits??.....

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Is all this complexity really necessary?

Is all this complexity really necessary?

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