Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

[mingle]

Hi All,

As a Linux newbie I find that (as I've heard mentioned many times before) the large number of choices of apps/utils is one of (desktop) Linux's biggest benefits, but also its biggest drawback, in terms of a consolidated approach to a single/common desktop environment.

I guess it's the roots (no pun intended!) of Linux itself, but from a desktop user's point of view, I only want ONE installer and don't want to have to fart around with consoles/CLIs just to get things done.

The OS should be tucked away in the background and the only bit that should be visible to me is the UI. It's there to run apps on top of, not to give me grey hair and an ulcer ;-)

I guess it'll get there one day (perhaps in the "Pissed-off Parrot" release of Kubuntu :-)

How do other newbies find it, in terms of app installs (my biggest gripe ATM) setting up hardware, etc...

Cheers,

Mike.

[Qqmike]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

It is what it is. Which is why most of us are here.
Fact is, after setting it up, 7.10 is working the best ever, and sure as hell beats XP (which I also use, but the ratios have flipped from 50-50 to 90-10 in favor of Kubuntu 7.10)

In Windows, either you can't fix things, or it's very difficult to do so as an average user.
In Kubuntu, at least you can fix things and easily tweak things, down to compiling your own kernel if you so wish.

You might check out another distro—a very popular one—perhaps “The” Aunt Minnie distro, Xandros. Basically, pay, receive, install-and-go:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=xandros

[JokersLoose]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

Heck I bought into the lies about linux. There isn't any software, it's not stable enough for day to day use, it's more suited for business app's than home. Then I found out that I could change with little effort. So I started reading up on the different distro's out there. Seems like every web site I went too about the "new" linux user had one main thing to say. "There is a learning curve with linux" What I have found is that most of the instructions out there assume you know some of the basic stuff (The same thing when DOS was usable). But if I slow down, read the directions and google a term or command I am unsure of I seem to find what I need. For me I have to get out of the "I want it RIGHT now" mind set, slow down a bit and do some reading. But I have had fun learning kubuntu. So far is has exceeded all of my expectations. In fact I went out and bought a "new" system (from a pawn shop) and loaded kubuntu on it. It's the only OS on this machine. I do have a laptop with the pre-loaded OS still on it (just in case I need the other OS). But so far I haven' booted it at all.

As for hardware set up. Well for me at least I haven't had any issues there. I ran the install. It read every part of my system from the start. I went out got a new DVD burner installed it no problems. I hooked up a printer, again no problems. Heck it even read my wireless card, and that one I was worried about. It's a linksys and I have read that linux and linksys dont play nice.

Welcome to the other side. I'll tell ya the group who post and reply here are GREAT help. Trust me, I have bugged them about doing some tweaks to my system.

James

[dibl]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

I guess it'll get there one day (perhaps in the "Pissed-off Parrot" release of Kubuntu :-)

Or, if you're really slow about it, maybe the "Tortured Turtle"!

I only started 18 months ago with Linux, although in a prior life I had used a Unix command line a little bit.

Here's the deal -- there's WAY too much to learn all at once. And, if you're honest, you'll concede that everything you now know about Windows was accumulated over a period of years, not days or weeks.

So, buy a decent book like Beginning Ubuntu Linux by Keir Thomas and just work on one or two things per day until you wake up one day and realize you've mastered most of what you need to use it effectively. It's unlikely you'll ever need to know everything about it anyway -- just go after the things that are relevant to your personal productivity.

And ... Welcome!

[trident_2008]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

I guess it's the roots (no pun intended!) of Linux itself, but from a desktop user's point of view, I only want ONE installer and don't want to have to fart around with consoles/CLIs just to get things done.

But it's the same on Windows

There was no unified installer until relaively recently, and apt or rpm are better than MSI, both from developer and user perespectives.

There is no unified update mechanism for third-party software, you end up with half-dozen of different auto-updaters (including Windows own) running, each with different UI, each eating your resources, slowing down starup, needing separate fw config entries, etc...

You need CLI or CLI-like tools to fully install, say, Java (JAVA_HOME and CLASSPATH are environment variables, and without ones set correctly many Java apps do not work. )

HW detection... Well, it has gone a long way from Win95 days, but so did Linux's. I'd say that HW dectection and driver availability are about same on both systems, although Windows drivers themselves tend to be better.

Support, - ok, theoreticaly Ms has customer support. Practicaly you end up searching Web and asking friendly sysadmins anyway.

[mingle]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

I've been an XP Pro user for over 7 years now and have never had to use CMD to get anything done... Maybe I've been lucky?

The only other thing I've discovered over the past few days (on my first real go at Kubuntu) is that quite a few (the majority) of decent open-source apps are also available for windows... Hmm...

The killer for me, at the moment, is that several apps that I REALLY need are only available on XP : mainly soft synths (FM8, Zero-G Nostaliga, Korg Legacy Collection, etc) and sequencers (Cubase, etc) and also synth patch editors (MIDIQuest XL)...

It's really frustrating that I'm still tied to XP - don't get me wrong, I think it's a great OS, in fact the most stable and reliable I've ever used (much better than W2K), but I'd like to give Linux desktop a decent go.

I don't think Wine would do me any good, as the programs I need are pretty processor intensive and trying to run them in an 'emulator' would cause too much latency...

Pity really.

Cheers,

Mike.

[trident_2008]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

I've been an XP Pro user for over 7 years now and have never had to use CMD to get anything done... Maybe I've been lucky?

Probably. You never needed output of ipconfig /all sent to your ISP/sysadmin, (and didn't care about ipconfig /renew). You needn't to run Regedit ("Start|Run..." IMO counts as CLI, just different from CMD.EXE) net.exe is also used often for things like manual malware removal...

Setting up scheduled tasks also is easier with .bat wrappers sometimes (like kill process A, run process B, restart A).

And you never compiled nightlies (most development tools need CLI, Windows or no.)

BTW, I'm not a big fan of Windows ports of OSS software... They just feel "alien".

also, *nix being "server" OS at its heart helps in architecture-transition tims (like now) Servers usually adopt new arches earlier, so when it becomes common on desktops Linux has it. Not so with MS' policy of artificially segregating "server" and "desktop" kernels (PAE, anyone?). I seriously don't want to be their guinea pig with Vista 64, for instance...

[kortsen]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

Let's compare apples to apples (no pun intended). Windows is not an operating system. It's a distro. The latest distro uses the latest NT kernel and the NTFS file system. It comes with a tightly integrated GUI and an assortment of applications.

And Linux is not a distro. It's an operating system that will run (your choice of) a GUI that will integrate tightly with the OS and will run a vast assortment of applications.

I have tinkered with Linux distros for almost 10 years. Debian, Knoppix, SuSE, Mandrake, Red Hat . . . I even had a free CD of OpenLinux Lite at one point (bite me McBride). In all that time I was never satisfied in the out-of-the-box experience of any of the packages. I commented on this in another thread. http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...5410#msg115410

And I have tinkered with Microsoft products from DOS 2.0 on up through all the Windows distros, Windows 286 to XP (including ME!). Until recently all I could say for M$ products is that they worked as expected most of the time and did what I needed to do. Which was more than I could say for Linux distros.

I have been Windows-free for 6 months now because I found that Kubuntu does everything I need it to do. I like the KDE desktop and the standard selection of aplications that comes with it. I'll admit I had to jump through some hoops to get my WiFi working, but that involved installing one program and using the GUI for System Settings to save the changes permanently. Adding all my favourite codecs was a lot simpler, thanks to Medibuntu. Adding all my favourite applications (Firefox, Tbird, Opera) was a heck of a lot easier thanks to the repositories. Adding third-party programs like Limewire was a simple download and right-click.

No distro, Micro$oft or Linux, is perfect. But the choices in the Linux world have gotten a lot better. For someone switching from Windows I would recommend any distro in the Ubuntu family. And tell them with confidence that they aren't perfect but, hey, they don't suck as bad as Windows does.

[dibl]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

The killer for me, at the moment, is that several apps that I REALLY need are only available on XP

I don't think Wine would do me any good, as the programs I need are pretty processor intensive and trying to run them in an 'emulator' would cause too much latency...

I have the same situation -- a very CPU-intensive MS Visual FoxPro database (genealogy app) -- and I lost a whole weekend trying to get it running in Wine, and in the end, it won't. I also wasted some $ on a Win4Lin license -- it works, but it's not as fast as VMWare by a long shot.

Take a look at the free VMWare Player ver. 2.02. I've been running my Windows app for a year that way, with total success. You will need to chase down a pre-built Win XP virtual machine to begin with, and you will need to install your legal XP license on it, but you only have to do that once, and then it's portable. I have a big Samsung CRT that I run at 1600x1200, so I run Win XP Pro in a 1280x1024 window and it looks great. I benchmarked my database running on the VM against a native Win XP Pro installation of it on the same hardware, and it runs on VMWare at 95% the speed of a native installation.

So, you don't actually need to boot Windows -- you only need to run it in a Linux window.

[Fintan]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

You will need to chase down a pre-built Win XP virtual machine to begin with, and you will need to install your legal XP license on it

You can also use this to convert:
http://www.howtoforge.com/vmware_con..._windows_linux
Provided you have a fairly stable win install.

[trident_2008]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

The killer for me, at the moment, is that several apps that I REALLY need are only available on XP

I don't think Wine would do me any good, as the programs I need are pretty processor intensive and trying to run them in an 'emulator' would cause too much latency...

I have the same situation -- a very CPU-intensive MS Visual FoxPro database (genealogy app)

Interesting... We all are talking about "typical desktop user", but has anyone meet that mythical being in person? No kidding, when I think about it everybody I know, including someone using her box EXCLUSIVELY to watch TV, has some 'un-typical' requirement to their system. (like support for TV card and remote )

BTW, that 'TV box' once stopped playing DVDs (broken WMP). Instead of just telling "sudo apt-get suchansuch" I first tried to explain GUI over the phone (Click that thing that looks like roll of film, what do you see? -... -No that's the wrong one, try one to the left..,), then had to do it myself...
And supporting PDAs over the phone... (with added twist that you have to hang up, so user can connect to GPRS... By the time he calls back he forgets what exactly that msgbox said... $200 phone bills...)
So that might explain (in part) that CLI-bias.

[Gediminas2]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

From my perspective, typing commands in the console is MUCH more fun than Searching a messy registry and editing it.

I tried a few Linux and M$ distros, and I seem to like debian based Linux Distributions.
Of course I took some time to learn and now I feel a LOT more confortable with Kubuntu that with any windows.

Could we call my thirtteen year old cousin who could use it after I installed(and does so with no problems yet) it an average user?

[MoonRise]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

Well for me it started with Ubuntu's Hoary HedgeHog (I think I spelled it correctly). Of course I have since migrated to Kubuntu. Anyway, when I first used it I had never had any Linux experience at all. Yes, I am an IT person and run only MS at work. What I found was that I picked it up rather quickly. Yes I still have a few questions from time to time, but I guess that is my mindset. I love learning new aspects of computing. Truthfully, Linux (or should I say Ubuntu/Kubuntu) has been more fun learning than MS DOS/Windows ever was/is. To be able to make this system "mine" has been a joy. From an IT perspective, to have that kind of choice/options is amazing!

[muzicman0]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

The killer for me, at the moment, is that several apps that I REALLY need are only available on XP : mainly soft synths (FM8, Zero-G Nostaliga, Korg Legacy Collection, etc) and sequencers (Cubase, etc) and also synth patch editors (MIDIQuest XL)...

I also used (and still use) some of those apps and plugins (been a cubase user since 1998). I am both a musician and I also do podcasts for a church...I started using Ardour to do the podcasts, and compiled it to use vst plugins (yes, it will use Win32 VST plugins, natively in Linux). There was a bit of a learning curve, but after I got used to Ardour, I am now starting to use it for music projects. Also, I am able to use some (not all) of my previous VSTi's with wineASIO, and don't really see much of a performance hit. I actually have my latency down below 6ms, which I was never able to do with XP.

mm0

[stripedtomato]

Re: Desktop Linux - thoughts from a newbie...

You talk as if you want Linux to be what Windows is: A small choice of apps, a single desktop environment, one installer, no Terminal tinkering, and a tucked away OS. Well, that is not what Linux is.

If you want an OS to do everything [for the most part] for you, and you do not like the Linux learning curve, then stick with Windows. But if you like choice, and a little bit of a challenge, and some Terminal time [which are not necessarily bad things], then welcome to the Linux world.

I have been in IT since '82, and frankly just got tired of the 'same old' Windows. The transition for me from Windows has had it moments, but I was prepared for difficulties and ready to take on the learning curve needed to be successful in transitioning to Linux, but it has not been as hard as I was expecting. I easily equate my learning curve for Linux the same as when I was first learning Windows.

I had drawn up a plan for me to learn and transition to Linux, which has helped. I am still transitioning but that is because I am giving myself the needed time to learn what I need to in Linux for the transition to be successful. Everyone transitions in their own way.

No, Linux is not 100% what I was expecting, but that is OK, because neither was Windows all of those years. I believe there is more potential for computer and personal growth using Linux, and I plan to stick with it. I look forward to the future with Linux.

I always felt like an outsider with Windows, but not with Linux. The Linux communities I have experienced [like here] have been fun because we are all pretty much in the same boat. The Linux mentality is kind of like ThinkGeek, but on steroids. Fun, fun, fun.

So come on Mike, ditch Windows, embrace the Terminal and don't look back, you'll be glad you did.

Timo

PS ~ If you are getting gray hair and an ulcer, it probably is not from any OS