Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

[penguin.ch]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

why don't you install a microsoft boot loader?
that will surely be point and click, won't it?

Hey, the cynic at this party is to be me

[fleamailman]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

In fact, no one stops someone from being on windows or mac, only that here one is offered the chance to have a system that is yours for the learning or just free for the using, something which the others do not offer you, and yet kubuntu has only itself to blame in that the others do not dare show their level of complexity, instead they charge one money to have a system that is hidden from one resulting in some people thinking that they are better served by this ignorance where in reality they systems are ever in a three way battle between the system makers, the malware makers and the protection makers, the cost of which I hope all will agree here is exorbitant

[Qqmike]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

For $100 (OEM), I don’t feel I own my copy of XP/Home to use as I need.
For $0, I do feel I own my digital representation of Kubuntu to use as I need.

[jankushka]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

Hey, the cynic at this party is to be me

then, do it properly!!!

[penguin.ch]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

then, do it properly!!!

Touché ...

[DMurray]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

QQMike, the cost may not be the only element in the equation.
For the regular user, having a free system to modify as they want is useless, people don't want to mess with code and sh!t, they just want a useable system. The freedom of modifying a Linux program is not a benefit for the masses, who actually messes with code here? People don't have time to waste with it.
The fact is that Linux was an alternative for the pure geek, but Ubuntu's approach now is to make it reach more users, so their system just can't be like a Slackware or Stampede. The scenario is very clear: our distro needs to be as easy as possible because people already have to know about dependency, services, updating packages, if something goes wrong, they end with a useless system and need to reinstall.
We need to agree that a regular Windows user may have a very frustrating experience in the first contact with Linux.
For someone who has never touched a computer, learning Linux is as easy as learning Windows, but users who come from this last OS have expectations. It's like they are doing a favor to try Linux, since they don't really NEED it, but people talk about being free, being secure, being compatible, but when they give it a shot, the first experience may be traumatic and they never come back.
This is the price to pay when Linux is not the first option, instead, people normally will have Windows installed and will need to dual-boot and blablabla, and problems may arise.

[DeathKitten]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

I think the biggest thing that keeps people away from the Linux and staying with the windows is that it is super easy to buy a pre-built system with the windows on it, where all the drivers are installed for you, everything is packaged up nice and easy, all the drives are formatted correctly, etc. I'd be happy to bet that a large portion of these people who come in whining about how hard it is to install Linux couldn't install windows on a freshly built box either.

Windows isn't really easier, it's just pre-configured for the masses. And of course when Dell finally listens and starts offering Ubuntu the same way, they start playing games with it like making windows machines of the same hardware configuration significantly less expensive than their sister machines with the Ubuntu by way of rebates and free hardware upgrades, where originally the two machines side by side had the Ubuntu box at the slight price advantage. It doesn't help Dell's case to play these games after they announced their deal with the Devil in the way of making Wal-mart their retail presence.

To the original poster on this thread, the solution is to make friends with a linux geek and bribe them into installing the linux for you. I've found beer makes a good bribe. Then once your friend has got you set up, you'll have a windows-like experience in that everything is set up and ready for you to get in, not learn a thing, and screw up your system.

If you're lucky, you'll have a friend like the one I had help me get started on the linux, who'll put you on the unstable release of his distro of choice (Mandrake's cooker anyone?) without telling you until months later after he's gotten annoyed with how much crap he has to fix for you, where he doesn't notice having these problems on his system because he fixes it without thinking about it. This will give you lots of broken toys to learn about regularly. He also had a tendency to tell me what to do without telling me why I was doing it, or how to learn about it more on my own and generally leave me in the dark while fixing my system for me. He did do one thing right, he told me to sign up for the Mandrake newbies list, so I had a helpful resource not unlike this board which allowed me to actually learn how to fix things on my own.

The best thing this friend did for me was buy me O'Reilly's Linux in a Nutshell book and then proceed to get weird and stop being my friend. When that happened, I decided to install kubuntu because two other friends recommended ubuntu, but I was a KDE-whore. Between the two of them very rarely ever agreeing on anything, and the fact that they actually explained what they were helping me with, I decided their advice was golden. I had one minor hickup with my first kubuntu install, but that was just having the permissions set wrong on my home directory/drive because kubuntu and mandrake have different user numbering systems. Once I figured out the sudo thing, and looked up the correct format for the chown command, that was quick to fix. I've been mostly happy ever since.

[penguin.ch]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

I'd be happy to bet that a large portion of these people who come in whining about how hard it is to install Linux couldn't install windows on a freshly built box either.

Well said

And, as I would like to add, as long as they keep comparing "pre-installed Windoze" to "Linux from scratch", it's close to impossible to discuss fairly, read: on equal terms (sic!).

[DeathKitten]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

I'd be happy to bet that a large portion of these people who come in whining about how hard it is to install Linux couldn't install windows on a freshly built box either.

Well said

And, as I would like to add, as long as they keep comparing "pre-installed Windoze" to "Linux from scratch", it's close to impossible to discuss fairly, read: on equal terms (sic!).

That is part of the reason why I brought up both bribing a linux geek into doing the install for him and Dell (evil though they may be). ^_^

[penguin.ch]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

Dell (evil though they may be)

From my point of view, Dell's behaviour in relation to Ubuntu is quite similar to Ubuntu's (read: Canonical's) behaviour in relation to Debian Linux: a two-edged sword, dangerous to deal with, but neither good nor bad in itself ... but I'm zoning out

[DeathKitten]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

The games Dell's playing with ubuntu probably wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't also recently decided to get involved with wal-mart (pure evil that makes almost all other evil seem good in comparison) and if it weren't for the outsourced tech support games which just leads to customers not getting the help they need in a reasonable amount of time. The ubuntu games are small compared to these things.

[fleamailman]

Re: Venting: Why should I learn the ins and outs of GRUB?

If walmat and dell get behind ubuntu, then I think a major shift its promotion, my only fear is that they will make the system unopen, which is where I understand that the users will just start a pirate linux distro, which I hope everyone will agree is only just.