EFI is now mandatory? Canonical strikes again.

[oshunluvr]

i7 desktop PC, no windows here so using Legacy boot mode. All drives GPT partitioned.

I was trying to do a new bare metal install (to upgrade my grub installation) and both Kubuntu and KDEneon 20.04 forced EFI mode even though I have no EFI partitions - no option to use legacy. Both Ubiquity (Kubuntu) and Calamares (KDEneon) did this. Prior to clicking "Continue" to begin the install, they put out a warning that my system may not be bootable - it wasn't. My PC offered me legacy or EFI boot mode on the USB sticks at boot time but neither would boot in legacy mode.

I had Linux Mint 19.3 Cinnamon handy so I installed that - it offered either mode at boot, but it's based on 18.04 so probably that's why.

Can anyone tell me one good reason why I MUST use EFI?

I'm kind of curious if one had a MBR formatted disk if the installer would allow a legacy install.

Seems very ominous that another mandate as to how I can setup and use my system has been forced down from above. I can add mandatory EFI along with default snapd to the growing list of "time to go shopping for a new distro..." reasons.

[claydoh]

fwiw, all my 20.04 based virtual machines are booting in bios mode (as expected), though it is presenting an empty EFI dir mounted at /boot/efi, which I believe we have noticed before
As far as I can recall, you need to have an mbr partition table for legacy booting, at least for Ubuntu's installer
I don't know about Calamares, perhaps it has the same ideas about how to install, or simply does not support setting up bios booting on gpt disks? (probably true for the crusty Ubiquity)

root@test-Standard-PC-Q35-ICH9-2009:/boot/efi#  parted -l 
Model: Virtio Block Device (virtblk) 
Disk /dev/vda: 26.8GB 
Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B 
Partition Table: msdos 
Disk Flags:  
 
Number  Start   End     Size    Type      File system  Flags 
 1      1049kB  538MB   537MB   primary   fat32        boot 
 2      539MB   26.8GB  26.3GB  extended 
 5      539MB   26.8GB  26.3GB  logical   ext4

I never looked to see if a normal Ubuntu install shows the same behavior re: the efi dir in legacy installs. I don't see any complaints as far as I can tell.

Anyhoo a link with more links:
https://superuser.com/questions/1337...-a-bios-system

Then I got lost in a rabbit hole and forgot where I was going originally.

[jlittle]

It's not just Canonical.

tl;dr CentOS too.

I tried to install CentOS to an old-ish MBR drive a week or so ago, and it's installer insisted on EFI. It would not run without an ESP specified. There is no way to say "no bootloader"; searches in the CentOS forums et cetera found posters like me asking how, with responses like "why would you not want your system to boot?". I could have told it the ESP Kubuntu and my other installs use but I feared CentOS might screw it up. I backed everything up, but I couldn't risk down time, so I installed into a VM.

[GreyGeek]

What release of Kubuntu 20.04.?? did you try?
I installed from the last beta and it never forced me to use EFI.

[claydoh]

I am beginning to think that Grub itself may need partition now. It does seem to need one for GPT disks, at the very least

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Gr...OS.2FMBR_Notes


https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/ma...S-installation

[oshunluvr]

I am beginning to think that Grub itself may need partition now. It does seem to need one for GPT disks, at the very least

Yes it does and I've written about it extensively on this forum. All my drives - even the ones that do not boot, have the needed partition. It's called a "BIOS BOOT" partition. It takes like 90 seconds to set up and that's not the issue.

I'm miffed because it's assumed I don't know what I'm doing. Much like those responses John got at the Centos forum. It's the equivalent of "Oh, you're too stupid to do it correctly so we've made it better for you. That's good, isn't it?" If this keeps going, everyone with real Linux knowledge will be using Arch and all the other distros will die in a mass of dumb sheep - shades of MicroSith. Defaults that save the noobs are fantastic and needed. Options for those of use who took off the training wheels more than a DECADE ago are just as necessary. I guess Linux pros aren't really using Linux DEs anyway because their project managers aren't computer people. I probably could have chrooted into the new install and forced grub on it, but didn't seem worth the time.

GG: I used the latest releases of both: Kubuntu 20.04.1 and KDEneon 20.04 User Edition, downloaded yesterday.

To be fair, it could be a "UEFI/BIOS vs. The Installer" issue where the installer devs didn't bother to allow Legacy installs if you have an EFI enabled PC (even though it's set to Legacy mode here). More likely it is because I use GPT so the (lame and unimaginative) devs decided I must also be using EFI.

The one telling indication is the USB drive would not boot except in EFI mode - at least on my PC. Clearly the ISOs are not being built for users like me. I haven't tried to install to a clean disk in a VM to see if I get the same results, but it's very possible it's the partitioning scheme.

The big take-away here, so far at least, is there really ISN'T any reason to use EFI if you're not using Windows. Is there? I haven't heard of one. Just another layer of MicroTurd involvement so they can continue to chip away at freedom.


EDIT: Additional thought - One could just install without a bootloader, manually boot into the new install through the GRUB console, and then install GRUB. What an unnecessary PITA tho...

[claydoh]

Its an Intel-turd sundae with MS sprinkles
I do greatly suspect that you are right about the installer making assumptions. it is a 'dumb user' program, by design.

I did get my PC to boot in Legacy mode with a Kubuntu USB

As I understand it, legacy mode is just compatibility layer on top of efi, at least on most systems of recent vintages, so you are still using efi
Some systems require booting back into efi mode to change some or all the firmware settings.

You seem to feel about efi how I feel about btrfs
Secure boot is another smelly kettle of fish

[mr_raider]

That's weird. I have been able to install every flavor of 20.04 distros (Mint, Kubuntu, Neon, Lubuntu) in a legacy/MBR scheme. I boot the live USB in legacy mode, manually format the drive to msdos table, and create my partitions one by one manually.

Don't trust the automatic installations.

I suggest you investigate why the ISO won't boot in legacy mode.

[jglen490]

We all have our burdens to bear. I don't like btrfs and you don't like UEFI. I think we will both live through it

[Qqmike]

jglen490:

We all have our burdens to bear. I don't like btrfs and you don't like UEFI. I think we will both live through it

Yep! :-) I vividly remember when GRUB Legacy was being pushed out by GRUB 2. Boy, was I disappointed! I had mastered Legacy and had everything customized, set up, USB sticks, dedicated partitions, my how-to's ... I wasn't the only one who felt let down. Look at the how-to writers that dropped by the wayside, notably Herman @ Big Pond/AU.

[mr_raider]

Tried Mint 20 xfce in virtualbox. No problem here:

[GreyGeek]

Thanks, Oshunluvr.
I guess I don't have anything to worry about. My laptop is eight years old and still going strong. I plan to continue with 20.04 until its EOL, so I won't have to worry about EFI any time soon.

[mr_raider]

Ok. Did some more experimentation:

If you boot in legacy mode, the installer will try a legacy install, regardless of how the drive is configured (GPT or not, EFI or not). It will put grub in the bios boot partition if it finds one on a GPT drive.

If you boot the LiveUSB in EFI mode, it will install in EFI mode, even if your drive is setup for a legacy (GPT or otherwise). If you don't create an EFI partition or feed the wrong partition table, it will complain about not being bootable.

In short the Live USB boot mode determines the attempted installation mode, at least for ubiquity and calamares. I'm guessing this is to install the right packages for grub (grub-efi vs grub-pc) and setup the right variables for the bootmanager.

Your best option at this stage is to install the OS without a bootloader by starting the installer with

ubiquity -b

which doesn't install a bootloader. Not sure that option is still available.

After that chroot to your install and fix it manually.

[oshunluvr]

As Mr. Raider points out - I suspect it's because I'm using GPT partitioning, however prior to 20.04 releases, this forcing of EFI mode did not occur.

jglen490:

We all have our burdens to bear. I don't like btrfs and you don't like UEFI. I think we will both live through it

A misguided retort - Apples and Oranges on two fronts:

1) No developer or distro has forced anyone to use btrfs. File systems have always been a user choice. A completely false comparison.
2) I never said I don't "like" EFI, I just don't need or want it. Again, totally off base. It's not a matter of like or dislike. Let me break it down again:

• I had no option to install without EFI.
• The only reason I'm aware of that one might need EFI is to dual boot with Windows, like I do on my laptop.
• There is no known advantage or benefit to using GRUB-EFI vs. GRUB that anyone has been able to point out.
• I can name a couple disadvantages to EFI.

I'm still waiting for any good reason to convert...

[oshunluvr]

If you boot in legacy mode, the installer will try a legacy install, regardless of how the drive is configured (GPT or not, EFI or not). It will put grub in the bios boot partition if it finds one on a GPT drive.

Yes, and as I pointed out, neither USB stick would boot in legacy mode. I agree that the problem is exactly this. I'm not sure why this was, but it doesn't happen with older 18.04 based ISOs. I'll have to try the new Mint and see how that plays out.

As far as the rest of your comments, I am aware of all those facts and options and thank you for your response. I just don't think anyone should have to go through all of that just to install to a system they own using widely available software like GRUB. It's not a wildly custom configuration to use GPT without EFI. It's written about all over the 'net.