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    UEFI, thumb drives and multiple hard drives

    My comptuter is UEFI enabled, with GPT partitioned drives.
    Setting up Kubuntu 14.04 64bit on this machine was a breeze.
    I don't have any windows. (very handy if I want to throw stones )

    I recently came across some information which I would like to have corroborated.


    1.
    After spotting some apparent 'problems' with one or two thumb drives that I own I began to do some experimenting.
    I used Dolphin to examine the contents of the drives, but on occasion it seemed as if the drives were not there. In the same way that a thumb drive which has been unmounted can no longer be seen by dolphin.
    I was also using gdisk, gparted and kde partition manager to diagnose the drives. At different times in different modes one application would find errors whereas another would give a clean bill of health. 'Correct' the 'errors' and the other application would complain.
    Here, I think, is the problem. I had partitioned the thumb drives as GPT, thinking I was bringing them into line with my system. I believe that it was this act that was behind the problems. I read very recently that thumb drives should be left MSDOS partitioned, even with a UEFI system. So I used gdisk to zap the GPT partitioning on them and returned them to MSDOS partitioning with a FAT32 partition using KDE partition manager. I am hoping they will now return to functioning as reliably as they used to.


    2.
    The second bit of 'knowledge' I acquired from Google, yet again. It concerns the partitioning of hard drives and SSD's, on a UEFI machine.
    My Google source suggests that each hard drive should ideally have a roughly 500M FAT32 partition at its start. Interestingly I set this type of partition up on each of the drives of a machine I was about to install with Kubuntu 14.04. After the install, with no bidding from myself, Kubuntu had adopted each partition and populated it with efi files. So apparently the system expected those partitions. I am not knowledgeable enough to know how these partitions fit into the bigger picture and if or when I might need to address them.


    3.
    The third pearl of Google wisdom.
    On each hard drive with a GPT partion table, so Google told me, every partition should have empty trailing and leading spaces, something to do with system housekeeping.
    I do leave a lead and trail space of 1-2M at beginning and end of a hard drive but maybe the need for these spaces is a myth?
    Last edited by bobbicat; Jul 29, 2014, 10:48 AM.

    #2
    1. It's perfectly acceptable to use GPT for flash drives. I think your issue might be that if you have a drive open in Dolphin, then replace that drive's partition table, Dolphin's access handle points to something that no longer exists. You'll need to close and re-open Dolphin. Of course, I might be completely understanding your situation. Oh, and what type of filesystem did you place into the partition when the drive was GPT?

    2. You need only one EFI system partition on one drive in the system. It does not have to be the first partition, it can be any partition. The EFI boot manager needs an NVRAM variable that points to the drive number and partition UUID of the EFI system partition. 500 MB seems a reasonable size -- it's what I use.

    3. This has to do with sector alignment. gdisk will automatically align partitions on 1 MB boundaries to ensure that logical sectors and physical sectors align on drives with either 512 KB or 4096 KB sectors. I wouldn't recommend changing the default.

    Comment


      #3
      I found the answer to my dilemma on the Ubuntu Forums. It had nothing whatever to do with the thumb drives or the way the thumb drives were set up, or the installation of Kubuntu Live on them.
      The errors I was experiencing were a result of the UEFI bios on my ASUS mobo and my lack of awareness of how to deal with it. When in the 'uefi bios' screen with a Kubuntu Live disk or some other bootable device plugged in, it is necessary to pick the UEFI version to boot from, as opposed to the non-UEFI listed version. This I had already realized. However and this is a BIG however, the boot order displayed in the 'uefi bios' has a crucial effect and if not properly addressed will produce all sorts of weird apparently nonsensical errors.
      To cut to the chase, when a Kubuntu Live disk is connected one must not only pick the UEFI version to boot from, but also - and this seems critical - ensure that all non-UEFI devices are listed after it in the boot order. Shift all devices identified as non-uefi to the bottom/back of the boot priority list on the 'bios' screen and magically the mysterious errors disappear and installation, or whatever, proceeds naturally and normally.
      It was a great relief to discover this answer to my dilemma. I believe it could also answer a problem of someone else on these Forums who was getting a Kernel panic error - something I also had encountered. I intend to post my findings on their thread.
      You could say I wasted 10 days before getting that crucial information, but it was a learning experience. I found more questions, those posted here in this thread. I would still like answers.

      Thanks for your reply Steve.
      1. I had originally created a GPT partition table, using GParted, on a 4G thumb drive. I then made one partition, using the whole of the drive space, formatted with FAT32, subsequently labelled lba, again using GParted. I then installed Kubuntu Live using Start Up Disk Creator.
      I'll give this another try and report back. It could well be that everything will behave correctly now that I understand the behaviour in my machine's 'bios'. As I said above, it is all a learning process and I'm happy to become more familiar with the workings of my machine and this system.
      2. When I first set up my machine I wasn't aware that each drive could have an EFI partition, so I only had that type of partition on my boot drive. I don't think the extra EFI partitions I created are doing any harm so I'll just leave them even though they are redundant.
      3. Yes I was getting into a tangle trying to 'correct' perceived errors when the solution to my problem lay elsewhere.

      here's a link to the Ubuntu Forum thread that put me right:
      http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11842855
      Last edited by bobbicat; Jul 31, 2014, 02:34 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        Not to be overly pedantic, but there is no such thing as a "UEFI BIOS." A machine will have either a BIOS-based firmware, or a UEFI-based firmware. Before the invention of UEFI, people simply used the term "BIOS" to refer the firmware because there was no other type. But now that we have two types of firmware, we need to be sure to use the correct terms to avoid confusion.

        Comment


          #5
          On the contrary, to be absolutely pedantic, neither the term UEFI nor the term BIOS refer to 'the screen that can appear when a machine is powered up'. It is merely convenient to have a term which we agree refers to this object.
          I suppose I should really have called it the UEFI IOS, to reflect the fact that the Input Output System is not as basic now. ( Maybe even AIOS for Advanced IOS - but who would know what I was talking about?)

          Language is something we arrive at by consensus, there are no absolutes, which is why pedantry is never productive, probably.

          The labels 'correct' and 'incorrect' are only arrived at by agreement. My colour and your color refer to the same quality. Is one right and the other wrong? Is it gray or grey?
          We definitely need to agree to differ.

          Please create a short term which refers to 'the screen which can appear when some computers are powered up.'
          I suggest 'Beginning Input Output Screen' or BIOS for short.

          *addition*
          I delight in confusion. Without a quantity of chaos, uncertainty and anarchy we would descend into an order whose blandness would encourage us to die of boredom.
          Last edited by bobbicat; Aug 01, 2014, 02:59 AM.

          Comment


            #6
            I'm not convinced you really understand the differences between BIOS and UEFI. Neither has anything to with the "screen that can appear when the machine is powered up." Both BIOS and UEFI are types of firmware, and both types can present a configuration menu when the machine is booted, but this is where their similarity ends.

            BIOS is an extremely rudimentary method for initializing the hardware in a system before starting the bootloader stored on the hard drive. And that is the complete extent of what BIOS does.

            UEFI is entirely different type of firmware. To imagine it as some kind of "(A)IOS" is just wrong. UEFI is more closely aligned to an operating system, in that it supports drivers, file systems, network access, and a pre-OS environment that permits manipulation of the hardware.

            Collectively, this class of device in the computer is called firmware. There are many bits of firmware in a modern PC. BIOS and UEFI are the two prevalent types of system firmware; UEFI became dominant around 2010 and the vast majority of computers built today have UEFI, not BIOS.

            Therefore, it is technically incorrect to say "UEFI BIOS." This is not a point over which there can be opinion or the requirment to have consensus. While confusion can sometimes be entertaining, it is often self-defeating in technical forums such as KFN where the primary objective is to learn.

            The correct term for the "screen that can appear when the machine is powered up" largely depends on which screen you have in mind If you're thinking about the one that appears when you press a certain function key and then presents a series of hardware setup menus, the correct term is firmware settings. Historically, this was called "entering the BIOS" because that was the only kind of firmware available. It's a sloppy substitute, and technically incorrect: you aren't "entering" anything but instead operating configuration menus. But the meaning was conventionally understood because there was no alternate firmware. Today, "entering the BIOS" isn't actually possible on a modern machine, because there is no BIOS. "Enter the UEFI" would be similarly sloppy and technically incorrect for the same reason: you're manipulating configuration menus. Interestingly, if you take the time to install the EFI shell in your EFI system partition, and then boot this shell, you'd be much closer to "entering the UEFI" than was ever possible with BIOS.

            Comment


              #7
              None of the above addresses my queries. You missed my point completely.
              My motherboard manual refers to what you call 'firmware' as the UEFI BIOS. Of course they only make the things and until people who know it all, like yourself, correct them, ordinary people like myself, who know nothing, will have to work with the accepted terminology in the Manual. I do know to what I am referring, as do you, yourself.
              When you said 1MB boundaries in reply to 3. above, did you actually really mean 1MiB boundaries?
              I hope you don't feel it necessary to tell me that you think I don't know the difference between a Mb and a MiB.

              I am exceedingly ignorant and have always been so and will no doubt end my days not knowing it all, but I do possess, by some accident, a little knowledge.

              Incidentally, I tried to make a Live Kubuntu 'disk' on a GPT partitioned thumb drive. I was not successful despite trying a number of methods to get a working KubuntuLive onto the drive.
              If there is a way I suppose it could be interesting to know how it could be done. I'm always interested in useful suggestions.
              As it is, an msdos partition tabled pen drive with a FAT32 partition will accept Kubuntu Live and work properly, so why try to fix something that isn't broken?
              Last edited by bobbicat; Aug 08, 2014, 10:10 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Hey keep it going. Definitely the uefi system is the way forward. But I (we non technical ones) need a lot more info on this subject. It reminds me of the metric/imperial measuring system and the confusion it is still having. When I order something in metric measurement, they want it in imperial and vice versa.

                I recently tried to use this system on a new build but did not succeed although I learned quite a bit including the 'bios' options. Maybe I should start another thread or is one existing re installing uefi kubuntu, gigabyte ga-990fxa-ud3 skt am3, ssd and 2tb hybrid drive (usually /home), nvidia gtx750 graphics card, cpu amd fx8350 8core. I would like the a dual boot with windows, kubuntu and another linux partition.

                Another question I have a 3tb usb expansion disk, gparted keeps giving me messages not knowing whether it is gtp or msdos. Seagate doesn't give much linux support. Maybe seagate has partitioned this disk their own way but I suspect it is gtp. How do I find out the type of partition table and info on this disk? Can I create a gtp partition and what formatting do I use? Forgive novice terminology.

                Comment


                  #9
                  @leon5k -- please start a new thread with your questions.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks for your comment leon. As you say, there is quite a deal of confusion around the subject and some 'advice' simply creates more of the same.

                    I notice the Gigabyte manufacturer's write-up for your motherboard refers to the UEFI BIOS, as does the manufacturer of my mobo Asus. Surely one of these manufacturers should try to get their terminology up to a proper standard.
                    At the very least they should be made aware of the confusion that is being caused for poor ignoramuses like myself on these Forums. We don't know what we don't know any more.
                    They are naughty - someone should tell them how wrong it it is to confuse ordinary users with their incorrect terminology.
                    ...but that has more to do with this thread than your interests, leon.

                    My experience with Kubuntu over the years has been good. I've had no major problems getting the operating system up and running. In fact I would go so far as to advocate this operating system to anyone looking for an alternative to other systems. I've installed KUBUNTU 14.04 64bit under UEFI with no problems, so it is possible.
                    On the whole, the advice and help that is on offer, both in Forums, Wikis and IRC chat, is useful, practical and will smooth the path of anyone new to the subject.
                    As our friend Steve points out, it is always a good idea to start a new thread if you have questions of your own. Of course this can seem a daunting experience. You are thereby exposing yourself to whatever other Forum users chose to throw at you. On the whole, though, you will find a sympathetic and friendly ear here at Kubuntu Forums. The Newb Forum 'Help the New Guy' is a good place to put those first questions.
                    Give it a try, you might even find you like it there, you'll certainly get good advice.
                    (I've used Seagate drives for many years and have been happy with the experience. Partition tables, partitioning, Kubuntu installation under UEFI on a Windows computer, can all be addressed if you create a thread)
                    Last edited by bobbicat; Aug 08, 2014, 11:06 AM.

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