The systemd controversy

[kubicle]

I realize this. I was thinking more about servers and about the security implications. Old versions of kernels, SSH, Postfix, Apache, etc. are not good to keep around. Maybe the distros are taking upstream patches and applying them to code rather than taking newer upstream branches. That can work, but it'll mess up a lot of vulnerability scanners and creates major maintenance headaches.

RHEL (and also CentOS) are fairly good at providing *security* updates for their releases, the server installations are their bread-and butter after all (kernels, for example, get security fixes for a relatively long time after new versions are relased). And they rarely introduce new bugs/security issues that sometimes come with major/minor version upgrades that introduce new features.

[SteveRiley]

RHEL (and also CentOS) are fairly good at providing *security* updates for their releases, the server installations are their bread-and butter after all (kernels, for example, get security fixes for a relatively long time after new versions are relased). And they rarely introduce new bugs/security issues that sometimes come with major/minor version upgrades that introduce new features.

That's good to know... I don't follow the RHEL/CentOS side of things much at all.

[TWPonKubuntu]

I found this analysis/comparison of the two service managers. I'm not saying it is balanced, but this will give the less informed (me included) a better concept of the arguments being presented.

http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/

The writer is a non-native english speaker, so the syntax is broken. It's not like we've never had to parse things like this before...

[TWPonKubuntu]

To continue this saga, I found this article about systemd. I seems (to me) to be a balanced analysis which points out the divergent nature of systemd within the Linux universe. I get the point made by the author that systemd is a step closer to the Windoze monolithic style...

http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-...md-7000033847/

[GreyGeek]

ZDNet is a source I rarely consult. Too many "Loverock.Davidon" types on it. Too much heat, little light.

Since you asked about systemd I'll respond by asking a question: Look at the following graphic:

Now, tell me how much of the Linux kernel AND the system libraries and drivers it seems to replace. It seems to me that "systemdOS" would be a better name. Why run Linux? SystemD has too many eggs in one basket, which violates the standard Linux paradigm -- a utility is a master of one, not a jack of all trades.

Personally, I am not looking forward to it. It's monolithic. Every bug will be a systemd bug and if it doesn't have good debugging you'll never figure out where the bug is.

When I began using Linux after boot up the system processes were called by inittab. it was so easy to edit and change your run level, dialup modem roll over, your spawning, niceness, etc.... I miss inittab but the current process is OK, since I do little custom configuring any more.

[claydoh]

Not only the problem of debugging it, but dealing with the developers and their seemingly jerk like attitudes will be fun, until more devs hack on it that aren't on the core team. This and the seeming lack of concern or interest in things non gnome.

[kubicle]

Since you asked about systemd I'll respond by asking a question: Look at the following graphic:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5315[/ATTACH]
Now, tell me how much of the Linux kernel AND the system libraries and drivers it seems to replace.

Umm...OK, systemd doesn't actually replace anything in the kernel. It uses recent kernel features such as cgroups, but everything that currently runs in kernelspace (like drivers) will still run in kernelspace with systemd.

It seems to me that "systemdOS" would be a better name. Why run Linux? SystemD has too many eggs in one basket, which violates the standard Linux paradigm -- a utility is a master of one, not a jack of all trades.

systemd is not "one thing", it's a group of components that were engineered to work well together, and these individual components basically "do one thing, and do it well". (that being said, I think the paradigm is a bit outdated in modern computing)

Personally, I am not looking forward to it. It's monolithic.

Well, the image you posted explains quite well why it isn't monolithic. systemd is not a big monolithic thing that runs as PID1 (this misconception is often the reason why some people perceive it as monolithic, the part of systemd that runs as PID1 is quite small), it's quite well compartmentalized and modularized in separate binaries/components (which allows for better parallellization).

When I began using Linux after boot up the system processes were called by inittab. it was so easy to edit and change your run level, dialup modem roll over, your spawning, niceness, etc.... I miss inittab but the current process is OK, since I do little custom configuring any more.

You can control runlevels etc. easily with systemd. It's different, but that doesn't mean it's complicated. I'd say it's more intuitive...and easier to even build a GUI around.
There is a fairly good starting guide for systemd configuration/manipulation available in ArchWiki (Arch has a the principle of "keeping things simple" and they have been using systemd for a good while):
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/systemd

EDIT: Again, I'm not saying systemd is perfect, but it's a vast improvement over what we currently have (the one thing that linux distributions lacked for a long time, is a decent init system).

[kubicle]

This and the seeming lack of concern or interest in things non gnome.

This is basically true of everything that comes from RedHat/Gnome (and this includes most of what we currently have, like the various *kits, networkmanager, telepathy etc.).

While this generally irks me (and I have been rather vocal about it), the devs aren't really hostile to non-gnome environments, they just leave the integration to the developers of those environments (which has generally worked fairly well, at least with kde...when a particular piece of software has been picked up by kde).

[GreyGeek]

Umm...OK, systemd doesn't actually replace anything in the kernel. It uses recent kernel features such as cgroups, but everything that currently runs in kernelspace (like drivers) will still run in kernelspace with systemd.....

Ok,so it doesn't replace these kernel modules, it just calls them? So it's replacing libc6 and its allied utilities? Most of the modules listed below are listed as part of systemd's functionality, along with dbus, networking, login, etc... Is systemd being redundant?

~$ lsmod
Module                  Size  Used by
sit                    26625  0 
tunnel4                13252  1 sit
ip_tunnel              23768  1 sit
ctr                    13049  1 
ccm                    17773  1 
pci_stub               12622  1 
vboxpci                23194  0 
vboxnetadp             25670  0 
vboxnetflt             27613  0 
vboxdrv               339502  3 vboxnetadp,vboxnetflt,vboxpci
rfcomm                 69160  12 
bnep                   19624  2 
usblp                  22891  0 
nfsv4                 465643  0 
nfsd                  280289  11 
auth_rpcgss            59338  1 nfsd
nfs_acl                12837  1 nfsd
nfs                   236636  1 nfsv4
lockd                  93977  2 nfs,nfsd
sunrpc                284939  19 nfs,nfsd,auth_rpcgss,lockd,nfsv4,nfs_acl
fscache                63988  2 nfs,nfsv4
uvcvideo               80885  0 
videobuf2_vmalloc      13216  1 uvcvideo
videobuf2_memops       13362  1 videobuf2_vmalloc
videobuf2_core         40664  1 uvcvideo
videodev              134688  2 uvcvideo,videobuf2_core
acer_wmi               32522  0 
sparse_keymap          13948  1 acer_wmi
snd_hda_codec_hdmi     46368  1 
snd_hda_codec_realtek    65580  1 
snd_hda_intel          56451  6 
snd_hda_codec         192906  3 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_intel
ath3k                  13318  0 
snd_hwdep              13602  1 snd_hda_codec
btusb                  32412  0 
bluetooth             391136  23 bnep,ath3k,btusb,rfcomm
snd_pcm               102099  3 snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel
snd_page_alloc         18710  2 snd_pcm,snd_hda_intel
snd_seq_midi           13324  0 
snd_seq_midi_event     14899  1 snd_seq_midi
snd_rawmidi            30144  1 snd_seq_midi
parport_pc             32701  0 
snd_seq                61560  2 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_seq_midi
ppdev                  17671  0 
intel_rapl             18773  0 
x86_pkg_temp_thermal    14205  0 
arc4                   12608  2 
intel_powerclamp       14705  0 
coretemp               13435  0 
snd_seq_device         14497  3 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_midi
kvm_intel             143060  0 
snd_timer              29482  2 snd_pcm,snd_seq
kvm                   451511  1 kvm_intel
snd                    69322  23 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_seq_device,snd_seq_midi
crct10dif_pclmul       14289  0 
crc32_pclmul           13113  0 
ghash_clmulni_intel    13216  0 
aesni_intel            55624  2 
lp                     17759  0 
parport                42348  3 lp,ppdev,parport_pc
aes_x86_64             17131  1 aesni_intel
lrw                    13286  1 aesni_intel
gf128mul               14951  1 lrw
ath9k                 164164  0 
glue_helper            13990  1 aesni_intel
ablk_helper            13597  1 aesni_intel
ath9k_common           13551  1 ath9k
cryptd                 20359  3 ghash_clmulni_intel,aesni_intel,ablk_helper
ath9k_hw              453856  2 ath9k_common,ath9k
ath                    28698  3 ath9k_common,ath9k,ath9k_hw
mac80211              630653  1 ath9k
joydev                 17381  0 
serio_raw              13462  0 
cfg80211              484040  3 ath,ath9k,mac80211
rtsx_pci_ms            18151  0 
lpc_ich                21080  0 
mei_me                 18627  0 
memstick               16966  1 rtsx_pci_ms
soundcore              12680  1 snd
mei                    82276  1 mei_me
mac_hid                13205  0 
btrfs                 835954  1 
xor                    21411  1 btrfs
raid6_pq               97812  1 btrfs
libcrc32c              12644  1 btrfs
hid_generic            12548  0 
usbhid                 52570  0 
hid                   106148  3 hid_generic,usbhid
i915                  783805  3 
rtsx_pci_sdmmc         23274  0 
nouveau              1097199  0 
mxm_wmi                13021  1 nouveau
i2c_algo_bit           13413  2 i915,nouveau
ttm                    85115  1 nouveau
drm_kms_helper         53081  2 i915,nouveau
drm                   303102  6 ttm,i915,drm_kms_helper,nouveau
ahci                   25819  2 
psmouse               106678  0 
libahci                32716  1 ahci
atl1c                  46086  0 
rtsx_pci               45956  2 rtsx_pci_ms,rtsx_pci_sdmmc
video                  19476  3 i915,acer_wmi,nouveau
wmi                    19177  3 acer_wmi,mxm_wmi,nouveau

[dibl]

No we still have libc6 and all the kernel modules applicable to your system:

root@imerabox:/# apt-cache policy systemd
systemd:
  Installed: 215-4
  Candidate: 215-4
  Version table:
 *** 215-4 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
root@imerabox:/# apt-cache policy libc6
libc6:
  Installed: 2.19-11
  Candidate: 2.19-11
  Version table:
 *** 2.19-11 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
root@imerabox:/# lsmod
Module                  Size  Used by
jfs                   132947  0 
bluetooth             209536  0 
rfkill                 13440  1 bluetooth
cpuid                   2140  0 
nls_utf8                1256  0 
nls_cp437               5849  0 
vfat                    8102  0 
fat                    43937  1 vfat
usb_storage            43096  0 
binfmt_misc             6077  1 
vmnet                  39270  13 
vmw_vsock_vmci_transport    16748  0 
vsock                  21909  1 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport
vmw_vmci               42328  1 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport
vmmon                  60284  0 
xt_CHECKSUM             1127  1 
iptable_mangle          1448  1 
ipt_MASQUERADE          1634  3 
iptable_nat             2518  1 
nf_nat_ipv4             3056  1 iptable_nat
nf_nat                 10589  3 ipt_MASQUERADE,nf_nat_ipv4,iptable_nat
nf_conntrack_ipv4       6324  2 
nf_defrag_ipv4          1395  1 nf_conntrack_ipv4
xt_conntrack            2809  1 
nf_conntrack           55886  6 ipt_MASQUERADE,nf_nat,nf_nat_ipv4,xt_conntrack,iptable_nat,nf_conntrack_ipv4
ipt_REJECT              2185  2 
xt_tcpudp               2314  6 
iptable_filter          1384  1 
ip_tables              13660  3 iptable_filter,iptable_mangle,iptable_nat
x_tables               14354  8 xt_CHECKSUM,ip_tables,xt_tcpudp,ipt_MASQUERADE,xt_conntrack,iptable_filter,ipt_REJECT,iptable_mangle
cpufreq_stats           3240  0 
cpufreq_powersave        982  0 
cpufreq_conservative     5848  0 
tun                    17200  1 
bridge                 80622  0 
stp                     1485  1 bridge
llc                     3143  2 stp,bridge
af_packet              24269  2 
ext2                   51247  1 
snd_usb_audio         106218  1 
snd_usbmidi_lib        16238  1 snd_usb_audio
snd_hda_codec_hdmi     31501  4 
gspca_zc3xx            40266  0 
gspca_main             19526  1 gspca_zc3xx
videodev               94220  2 gspca_main,gspca_zc3xx
media                  10265  1 videodev
joydev                  8195  0 
snd_hda_codec_realtek    48685  1 
snd_hda_codec_generic    40408  1 snd_hda_codec_realtek
nvidia              10472840  48 
snd_hda_intel          18207  5 
snd_hda_controller     15268  1 snd_hda_intel
snd_hda_codec          74791  5 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_hda_intel,snd_hda_controller
iTCO_wdt                4895  0 
iTCO_vendor_support     1688  1 iTCO_wdt
snd_hwdep               5501  2 snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec
mxm_wmi                 1363  0 
snd_pcm_oss            30953  0 
evdev                   9505  24 
snd_mixer_oss          12215  1 snd_pcm_oss
snd_pcm                66166  7 snd_pcm_oss,snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_hda_controller
psmouse                72219  0 
snd_seq_dummy           1359  0 
snd_seq_midi            4144  0 
kvm_intel             119994  0 
snd_seq_oss            24139  0 
kvm                   235248  1 kvm_intel
serio_raw               4118  0 
pcspkr                  1800  0 
snd_seq_midi_event      4660  2 snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_midi
snd_rawmidi            15637  2 snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_seq_midi
snd_seq                41726  6 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_dummy,snd_seq_midi
snd_seq_device          4608  5 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_dummy,snd_seq_midi
snd_timer              15555  2 snd_pcm,snd_seq
lpc_ich                13401  0 
snd                    50290  27 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_pcm_oss,snd_usb_audio,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_device,snd_mixer_oss
mfd_core                2665  1 lpc_ich
soundcore               4335  2 snd,snd_hda_codec
i2c_i801                8590  0 
wmi                     7283  1 mxm_wmi
asus_atk0110            8554  0 
i7core_edac            14535  0 
edac_core              31057  2 i7core_edac
button                  4440  0 
acpi_cpufreq            6224  0 
processor              23297  1 acpi_cpufreq
coretemp                5132  0 
adt7475                15874  0 
hwmon_vid               2238  1 adt7475
i2c_core               18419  4 i2c_i801,adt7475,nvidia,videodev
fuse                   65377  3 
parport_pc             26985  0 
ppdev                   4972  0 
lp                      8522  0 
parport                26708  3 lp,ppdev,parport_pc
autofs4                20198  2 
ext4                  281017  3 
crc16                   1319  2 ext4,bluetooth
jbd2                   49836  1 ext4
mbcache                 5920  2 ext2,ext4
btrfs                 634999  1 
xor                    10104  1 btrfs
raid6_pq               89699  1 btrfs
dm_mod                 68871  0 
sg                     18554  0 
sr_mod                 13073  0 
sd_mod                 33011  10 
crc_t10dif              1095  1 sd_mod
cdrom                  22947  1 sr_mod
crct10dif_generic       1429  1 
crct10dif_common        1268  2 crct10dif_generic,crc_t10dif
hid_microsoft           3014  0 
usbhid                 29897  0 
hid                    80844  2 hid_microsoft,usbhid
ata_generic             3266  0 
pata_acpi               3155  0 
ahci                   23072  4 
libahci                18101  1 ahci
crc32c_intel           13873  1 
firewire_ohci          26245  0 
ata_piix               24287  3 
sata_sil24             10079  5 
firewire_core          43455  1 firewire_ohci
crc_itu_t               1323  1 firewire_core
sky2                   40931  0 
uhci_hcd               18414  0 
ehci_pci                3240  0 
ehci_hcd               34624  1 ehci_pci
xhci_hcd               82010  0 
libata                139810  6 ahci,pata_acpi,libahci,sata_sil24,ata_generic,ata_piix
usbcore               140053  10 uhci_hcd,snd_usb_audio,usb_storage,snd_usbmidi_lib,ehci_hcd,ehci_pci,gspca_main,usbhid,gspca_zc3xx,xhci_hcd
scsi_mod              136258  5 sg,usb_storage,libata,sd_mod,sr_mod
usb_common              1608  1 usbcore
root@imerabox:/#

There are several cheat sheets online which can be helpful during your transition.

[kubicle]

Ok,so it doesn't replace these kernel modules, it just calls them? So it's replacing libc6 and its allied utilities? Most of the modules listed below are listed as part of systemd's functionality, along with dbus, networking, login, etc... Is systemd being redundant?

I think you are confusing kernel modules (the things that lsmod shows) that run in kernelspace with system services/daemons that run in userspace.

Kernel modules are essentially part of the kernel, they are just compiled as (optional) modules to keep the core (essential) kernel size smaller as not all things that are compiled as modules are necessary on all machines (some functionality may be optional...or the module is only necessary for certain hardware [drivers]), but if you compile your own kernel you could compile them inside the kernel as opposed to separate modules. The modules extend the kernel and are loaded and handled by the kernel when needed (there are some userspace commands that enable the user to manipulate how and what modules the kernel loads, like modprobe).

systemd is a replacement init daemon (yes, it's more than that, but among those it's a replacement for /sbin/init) init gets called by the kernel once the kernel is loaded (kernel basically hands over the boot process to init, which then starts the userspace system processes/services/daemons that allow you to actually use the machine. In this regard systemd is not much different from sysv init or upstart (which also start the userspace system services).

Of course, systemd includes some components designed to replace some system services like journald, which makes syslogd redundant (although you can use syslog if you want to for some reason), but this has nothing to do with kernel modules.

[TWPonKubuntu]

And others are proposing a "fix" for systemd, in the sense of removing the perceived 'bloat':

uselessd -- systemd with the useless bits removed
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

[GreyGeek]

No we still have libc6 and all the kernel modules applicable to your system:
.....
There are several cheat sheets online which can be helpful during your transition.

Hey Dibl, welcome back!
It looks like I am getting farther and farther behind on the technical bits of Kubuntu (or Linux). You're right, of course. Systemd isn't the only thing I get confused about -- just ask my wife!
Thanks for the "cheats"!

[GreyGeek]

I think you are confusing kernel modules (the things that lsmod shows) that run in kernelspace with system services/daemons that run in userspace.
...

Confusing those and more, and embarrassing myself in the process. That systemd graphic was entirely misleading to me.

When I retired over six years ago I had plans of doing a lot of programming in Linux. Sadly, or happily from my wife's view point, I never wrote another line of code and haven't kept up on the the innards of Linux like I once did when inittab was king. The only thing I try to keep abreast of is the KDE dekstop. Now, pardon me while I crawl into a hole and pull a rock in over me.

[TWPonKubuntu]

It seems that this horse is NOT dead:

Debian makes it optional to use systemd or sysvinit, coming soon to a system near you...

http://www.itwire.com/business-it-ne...-with-sysvinit