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Last edited by kubicle; Sep 04, 2014, 12:06 PM.
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Pan-Galactic QuordlepleenSo Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
- Jul 2011
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Originally posted by kubicle View PostRHEL (and also CentOS) are fairly good at providing *security* updates for their releases, the server installations are their bread-and butter after all (kernels, for example, get security fixes for a relatively long time after new versions are relased). And they rarely introduce new bugs/security issues that sometimes come with major/minor version upgrades that introduce new features.
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I found this analysis/comparison of the two service managers. I'm not saying it is balanced, but this will give the less informed (me included) a better concept of the arguments being presented.
http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/
The writer is a non-native english speaker, so the syntax is broken. It's not like we've never had to parse things like this before...Last edited by TWPonKubuntu; Sep 07, 2014, 12:07 PM.Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.11.0, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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To continue this saga, I found this article about systemd. I seems (to me) to be a balanced analysis which points out the divergent nature of systemd within the Linux universe. I get the point made by the author that systemd is a step closer to the Windoze monolithic style...
http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-...md-7000033847/Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.11.0, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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ZDNet is a source I rarely consult. Too many "Loverock.Davidon" types on it. Too much heat, little light.
Since you asked about systemd I'll respond by asking a question: Look at the following graphic:
Now, tell me how much of the Linux kernel AND the system libraries and drivers it seems to replace. It seems to me that "systemdOS" would be a better name. Why run Linux? SystemD has too many eggs in one basket, which violates the standard Linux paradigm -- a utility is a master of one, not a jack of all trades.
Personally, I am not looking forward to it. It's monolithic. Every bug will be a systemd bug and if it doesn't have good debugging you'll never figure out where the bug is.
When I began using Linux after boot up the system processes were called by inittab. it was so easy to edit and change your run level, dialup modem roll over, your spawning, niceness, etc.... I miss inittab but the current process is OK, since I do little custom configuring any more."A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
– John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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Not only the problem of debugging it, but dealing with the developers and their seemingly jerk like attitudes will be fun, until more devs hack on it that aren't on the core team. This and the seeming lack of concern or interest in things non gnome.
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Originally posted by GreyGeek View PostSince you asked about systemd I'll respond by asking a question: Look at the following graphic:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5315[/ATTACH]
Now, tell me how much of the Linux kernel AND the system libraries and drivers it seems to replace.
Originally posted by GreyGeek View PostIt seems to me that "systemdOS" would be a better name. Why run Linux? SystemD has too many eggs in one basket, which violates the standard Linux paradigm -- a utility is a master of one, not a jack of all trades.
Originally posted by GreyGeek View PostPersonally, I am not looking forward to it. It's monolithic.
Originally posted by GreyGeek View PostWhen I began using Linux after boot up the system processes were called by inittab. it was so easy to edit and change your run level, dialup modem roll over, your spawning, niceness, etc.... I miss inittab but the current process is OK, since I do little custom configuring any more.
There is a fairly good starting guide for systemd configuration/manipulation available in ArchWiki (Arch has a the principle of "keeping things simple" and they have been using systemd for a good while):
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/systemd
EDIT: Again, I'm not saying systemd is perfect, but it's a vast improvement over what we currently have (the one thing that linux distributions lacked for a long time, is a decent init system).Last edited by kubicle; Sep 22, 2014, 06:15 AM.
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Originally posted by claydoh View PostThis and the seeming lack of concern or interest in things non gnome.
While this generally irks me (and I have been rather vocal about it), the devs aren't really hostile to non-gnome environments, they just leave the integration to the developers of those environments (which has generally worked fairly well, at least with kde...when a particular piece of software has been picked up by kde).
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Originally posted by kubicle View PostUmm...OK, systemd doesn't actually replace anything in the kernel. It uses recent kernel features such as cgroups, but everything that currently runs in kernelspace (like drivers) will still run in kernelspace with systemd.....
Code:~$ lsmod Module Size Used by sit 26625 0 tunnel4 13252 1 sit ip_tunnel 23768 1 sit ctr 13049 1 ccm 17773 1 pci_stub 12622 1 vboxpci 23194 0 vboxnetadp 25670 0 vboxnetflt 27613 0 vboxdrv 339502 3 vboxnetadp,vboxnetflt,vboxpci rfcomm 69160 12 bnep 19624 2 usblp 22891 0 nfsv4 465643 0 nfsd 280289 11 auth_rpcgss 59338 1 nfsd nfs_acl 12837 1 nfsd nfs 236636 1 nfsv4 lockd 93977 2 nfs,nfsd sunrpc 284939 19 nfs,nfsd,auth_rpcgss,lockd,nfsv4,nfs_acl fscache 63988 2 nfs,nfsv4 uvcvideo 80885 0 videobuf2_vmalloc 13216 1 uvcvideo videobuf2_memops 13362 1 videobuf2_vmalloc videobuf2_core 40664 1 uvcvideo videodev 134688 2 uvcvideo,videobuf2_core acer_wmi 32522 0 sparse_keymap 13948 1 acer_wmi snd_hda_codec_hdmi 46368 1 snd_hda_codec_realtek 65580 1 snd_hda_intel 56451 6 snd_hda_codec 192906 3 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_intel ath3k 13318 0 snd_hwdep 13602 1 snd_hda_codec btusb 32412 0 bluetooth 391136 23 bnep,ath3k,btusb,rfcomm snd_pcm 102099 3 snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel snd_page_alloc 18710 2 snd_pcm,snd_hda_intel snd_seq_midi 13324 0 snd_seq_midi_event 14899 1 snd_seq_midi snd_rawmidi 30144 1 snd_seq_midi parport_pc 32701 0 snd_seq 61560 2 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_seq_midi ppdev 17671 0 intel_rapl 18773 0 x86_pkg_temp_thermal 14205 0 arc4 12608 2 intel_powerclamp 14705 0 coretemp 13435 0 snd_seq_device 14497 3 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_midi kvm_intel 143060 0 snd_timer 29482 2 snd_pcm,snd_seq kvm 451511 1 kvm_intel snd 69322 23 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_seq_device,snd_seq_midi crct10dif_pclmul 14289 0 crc32_pclmul 13113 0 ghash_clmulni_intel 13216 0 aesni_intel 55624 2 lp 17759 0 parport 42348 3 lp,ppdev,parport_pc aes_x86_64 17131 1 aesni_intel lrw 13286 1 aesni_intel gf128mul 14951 1 lrw ath9k 164164 0 glue_helper 13990 1 aesni_intel ablk_helper 13597 1 aesni_intel ath9k_common 13551 1 ath9k cryptd 20359 3 ghash_clmulni_intel,aesni_intel,ablk_helper ath9k_hw 453856 2 ath9k_common,ath9k ath 28698 3 ath9k_common,ath9k,ath9k_hw mac80211 630653 1 ath9k joydev 17381 0 serio_raw 13462 0 cfg80211 484040 3 ath,ath9k,mac80211 rtsx_pci_ms 18151 0 lpc_ich 21080 0 mei_me 18627 0 memstick 16966 1 rtsx_pci_ms soundcore 12680 1 snd mei 82276 1 mei_me mac_hid 13205 0 btrfs 835954 1 xor 21411 1 btrfs raid6_pq 97812 1 btrfs libcrc32c 12644 1 btrfs hid_generic 12548 0 usbhid 52570 0 hid 106148 3 hid_generic,usbhid i915 783805 3 rtsx_pci_sdmmc 23274 0 nouveau 1097199 0 mxm_wmi 13021 1 nouveau i2c_algo_bit 13413 2 i915,nouveau ttm 85115 1 nouveau drm_kms_helper 53081 2 i915,nouveau drm 303102 6 ttm,i915,drm_kms_helper,nouveau ahci 25819 2 psmouse 106678 0 libahci 32716 1 ahci atl1c 46086 0 rtsx_pci 45956 2 rtsx_pci_ms,rtsx_pci_sdmmc video 19476 3 i915,acer_wmi,nouveau wmi 19177 3 acer_wmi,mxm_wmi,nouveau
"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
– John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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No we still have libc6 and all the kernel modules applicable to your system:
Code:root@imerabox:/# apt-cache policy systemd systemd: Installed: 215-4 Candidate: 215-4 Version table: *** 215-4 0 500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status root@imerabox:/# apt-cache policy libc6 libc6: Installed: 2.19-11 Candidate: 2.19-11 Version table: *** 2.19-11 0 500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status root@imerabox:/# lsmod Module Size Used by jfs 132947 0 bluetooth 209536 0 rfkill 13440 1 bluetooth cpuid 2140 0 nls_utf8 1256 0 nls_cp437 5849 0 vfat 8102 0 fat 43937 1 vfat usb_storage 43096 0 binfmt_misc 6077 1 vmnet 39270 13 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport 16748 0 vsock 21909 1 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport vmw_vmci 42328 1 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport vmmon 60284 0 xt_CHECKSUM 1127 1 iptable_mangle 1448 1 ipt_MASQUERADE 1634 3 iptable_nat 2518 1 nf_nat_ipv4 3056 1 iptable_nat nf_nat 10589 3 ipt_MASQUERADE,nf_nat_ipv4,iptable_nat nf_conntrack_ipv4 6324 2 nf_defrag_ipv4 1395 1 nf_conntrack_ipv4 xt_conntrack 2809 1 nf_conntrack 55886 6 ipt_MASQUERADE,nf_nat,nf_nat_ipv4,xt_conntrack,iptable_nat,nf_conntrack_ipv4 ipt_REJECT 2185 2 xt_tcpudp 2314 6 iptable_filter 1384 1 ip_tables 13660 3 iptable_filter,iptable_mangle,iptable_nat x_tables 14354 8 xt_CHECKSUM,ip_tables,xt_tcpudp,ipt_MASQUERADE,xt_conntrack,iptable_filter,ipt_REJECT,iptable_mangle cpufreq_stats 3240 0 cpufreq_powersave 982 0 cpufreq_conservative 5848 0 tun 17200 1 bridge 80622 0 stp 1485 1 bridge llc 3143 2 stp,bridge af_packet 24269 2 ext2 51247 1 snd_usb_audio 106218 1 snd_usbmidi_lib 16238 1 snd_usb_audio snd_hda_codec_hdmi 31501 4 gspca_zc3xx 40266 0 gspca_main 19526 1 gspca_zc3xx videodev 94220 2 gspca_main,gspca_zc3xx media 10265 1 videodev joydev 8195 0 snd_hda_codec_realtek 48685 1 snd_hda_codec_generic 40408 1 snd_hda_codec_realtek nvidia 10472840 48 snd_hda_intel 18207 5 snd_hda_controller 15268 1 snd_hda_intel snd_hda_codec 74791 5 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_hda_intel,snd_hda_controller iTCO_wdt 4895 0 iTCO_vendor_support 1688 1 iTCO_wdt snd_hwdep 5501 2 snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec mxm_wmi 1363 0 snd_pcm_oss 30953 0 evdev 9505 24 snd_mixer_oss 12215 1 snd_pcm_oss snd_pcm 66166 7 snd_pcm_oss,snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_hda_controller psmouse 72219 0 snd_seq_dummy 1359 0 snd_seq_midi 4144 0 kvm_intel 119994 0 snd_seq_oss 24139 0 kvm 235248 1 kvm_intel serio_raw 4118 0 pcspkr 1800 0 snd_seq_midi_event 4660 2 snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_midi snd_rawmidi 15637 2 snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_seq_midi snd_seq 41726 6 snd_seq_midi_event,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_dummy,snd_seq_midi snd_seq_device 4608 5 snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_dummy,snd_seq_midi snd_timer 15555 2 snd_pcm,snd_seq lpc_ich 13401 0 snd 50290 27 snd_hda_codec_realtek,snd_pcm_oss,snd_usb_audio,snd_hwdep,snd_timer,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_pcm,snd_seq,snd_rawmidi,snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_intel,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_device,snd_mixer_oss mfd_core 2665 1 lpc_ich soundcore 4335 2 snd,snd_hda_codec i2c_i801 8590 0 wmi 7283 1 mxm_wmi asus_atk0110 8554 0 i7core_edac 14535 0 edac_core 31057 2 i7core_edac button 4440 0 acpi_cpufreq 6224 0 processor 23297 1 acpi_cpufreq coretemp 5132 0 adt7475 15874 0 hwmon_vid 2238 1 adt7475 i2c_core 18419 4 i2c_i801,adt7475,nvidia,videodev fuse 65377 3 parport_pc 26985 0 ppdev 4972 0 lp 8522 0 parport 26708 3 lp,ppdev,parport_pc autofs4 20198 2 ext4 281017 3 crc16 1319 2 ext4,bluetooth jbd2 49836 1 ext4 mbcache 5920 2 ext2,ext4 btrfs 634999 1 xor 10104 1 btrfs raid6_pq 89699 1 btrfs dm_mod 68871 0 sg 18554 0 sr_mod 13073 0 sd_mod 33011 10 crc_t10dif 1095 1 sd_mod cdrom 22947 1 sr_mod crct10dif_generic 1429 1 crct10dif_common 1268 2 crct10dif_generic,crc_t10dif hid_microsoft 3014 0 usbhid 29897 0 hid 80844 2 hid_microsoft,usbhid ata_generic 3266 0 pata_acpi 3155 0 ahci 23072 4 libahci 18101 1 ahci crc32c_intel 13873 1 firewire_ohci 26245 0 ata_piix 24287 3 sata_sil24 10079 5 firewire_core 43455 1 firewire_ohci crc_itu_t 1323 1 firewire_core sky2 40931 0 uhci_hcd 18414 0 ehci_pci 3240 0 ehci_hcd 34624 1 ehci_pci xhci_hcd 82010 0 libata 139810 6 ahci,pata_acpi,libahci,sata_sil24,ata_generic,ata_piix usbcore 140053 10 uhci_hcd,snd_usb_audio,usb_storage,snd_usbmidi_lib,ehci_hcd,ehci_pci,gspca_main,usbhid,gspca_zc3xx,xhci_hcd scsi_mod 136258 5 sg,usb_storage,libata,sd_mod,sr_mod usb_common 1608 1 usbcore root@imerabox:/#
Last edited by dibl; Sep 22, 2014, 09:26 AM.
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Originally posted by GreyGeek View PostOk,so it doesn't replace these kernel modules, it just calls them? So it's replacing libc6 and its allied utilities? Most of the modules listed below are listed as part of systemd's functionality, along with dbus, networking, login, etc... Is systemd being redundant?
Kernel modules are essentially part of the kernel, they are just compiled as (optional) modules to keep the core (essential) kernel size smaller as not all things that are compiled as modules are necessary on all machines (some functionality may be optional...or the module is only necessary for certain hardware [drivers]), but if you compile your own kernel you could compile them inside the kernel as opposed to separate modules. The modules extend the kernel and are loaded and handled by the kernel when needed (there are some userspace commands that enable the user to manipulate how and what modules the kernel loads, like modprobe).
systemd is a replacement init daemon (yes, it's more than that, but among those it's a replacement for /sbin/init) init gets called by the kernel once the kernel is loaded (kernel basically hands over the boot process to init, which then starts the userspace system processes/services/daemons that allow you to actually use the machine. In this regard systemd is not much different from sysv init or upstart (which also start the userspace system services).
Of course, systemd includes some components designed to replace some system services like journald, which makes syslogd redundant (although you can use syslog if you want to for some reason), but this has nothing to do with kernel modules.Last edited by kubicle; Sep 22, 2014, 09:57 AM.
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And others are proposing a "fix" for systemd, in the sense of removing the perceived 'bloat':
uselessd -- systemd with the useless bits removed
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.11.0, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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Originally posted by dibl View PostNo we still have libc6 and all the kernel modules applicable to your system:
.....
There are several cheat sheets online which can be helpful during your transition.
It looks like I am getting farther and farther behind on the technical bits of Kubuntu (or Linux). You're right, of course. Systemd isn't the only thing I get confused about -- just ask my wife!
Thanks for the "cheats"!"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
– John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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Originally posted by kubicle View PostI think you are confusing kernel modules (the things that lsmod shows) that run in kernelspace with system services/daemons that run in userspace.
...
When I retired over six years ago I had plans of doing a lot of programming in Linux. Sadly, or happily from my wife's view point, I never wrote another line of code and haven't kept up on the the innards of Linux like I once did when inittab was king. The only thing I try to keep abreast of is the KDE dekstop. Now, pardon me while I crawl into a hole and pull a rock in over me."A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
– John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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It seems that this horse is NOT dead:
Debian makes it optional to use systemd or sysvinit, coming soon to a system near you...
http://www.itwire.com/business-it-ne...-with-sysvinitKubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.11.0, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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