"Venting" section

[GreyGeek]

Re: "Venting" section

....
If one stands on the prow of a ship, faced squarely into the heart of the storm, and decides to take a piss,...Well, we all know the results of that.

An eloquent post summed up with a brilliant metaphor!

[grizzler]

Re: "Venting" section

....
If one stands on the prow of a ship, faced squarely into the heart of the storm, and decides to take a piss,...Well, we all know the results of that.

An eloquent post summed up with a brilliant metaphor!

Sorry, but this smells of rose tinted glasses.

It's perfectly fine to want to promote Linux, but should that be at all cost? Nothing is perfect, not even *buntu.

In spite of what some people like to believe, you can get into a serious mess with it, even if you do everything 'by the book' and follow all the advice you've been given. I've been there myself. Followed the advice of a 'specialist' with years of experience and ended up with a totally borked installation. So I decided the specialist was an a**h**e and reinstalled the lot from the CD. No rant required (at that time - I do rant occasionally...). But that's because I don't give up so easily (I did give up later, for about a year, because of an inexplicable hardware problem which has since been fixed - i.e. circumvented).
Also, I fully understand kbunt's post, particularly his quote of the most useless answer you can get: 'it works for me...'.

If you've come to the conclusion that it doesn't work for you, whether it's because you just can't get your head around it or because of hardware that doesn't want to behave, I think there's no harm in expressing that in a dedicated area of the forum. It can help you to get it out of your system, especially if you've spent a long time trying to get it to work. And it can help others who are in a similar predicament, to understand that it isn't necessarily all their fault they're having problems.

[Snowhog]

Re: "Venting" section

It's perfectly fine to want to promote Linux, but should that be at all cost? Nothing is perfect, not even *buntu.

Who said that promoting Linux should be "at all cost?" No one here that I'm aware of. "Nothing is perfect," is a true statement. One has to understand that it applies to people as well.

KFN is about 'helping' users of Kubuntu. A post to vent ones frustrations may be cathartic to the poster, but serves no other (useful) purpose, again, IMO.

One of the first things anyone who has decided to use Linux must understand, is that the 'desire' to use it doesn't (always) equal the ability to use it. In this sense, ability applies both, to the user as well as the PC being used. And this isn't unique to Linux - just try and install Windoze Vista on an old 8088 processor PC with 256K of RAM.

Linux 'generally' takes more technical ability of the user than Windoze does. I say generally, as there are more variants of Linux than there are of Windoze. Some are very much 'turn key' distros - install and use - much like Windoze. But because there are so many variants, and so many different PC architectures, the combinations, and thus, the possibility of 'problems' are greater than those using Windoze.

That one *wants* to use the most recent release of Kubuntu, doesn't mean one will be *able* to, at least, 'out of the box' with 'no issues.' If one does experience problems, the least helpful approach to resolving it - if it is resolvable - is to simply rant about it.

Ranting without substance is my issue. If one rants, but provides substantive information, then, even if not in the form of a question or plea for help, we may be able to assist. Otherwise, it only generates continued commentary about the pros and cons of such posts - as I'm doing now.

[skunk]

Re: "Venting" section

Also, I fully understand kbunt's post, particularly his quote of the most useless answer you can get: 'it works for me...'.

If you've come to the conclusion that it doesn't work for you, whether it's because you just can't get your head around it or because of hardware that doesn't want to behave, I think there's no harm in expressing that in a dedicated area of the forum. It can help you to get it out of your system, especially if you've spent a long time trying to get it to work. And it can help others who are in a similar predicament, to understand that it isn't necessarily all their fault they're having problems.

I disagree. The fact that it works for somebody (everybody?) else IS valuable info. There is nothing worse than spending hours trying to fix something that is genuinely broken for everybody. Sometimes you just need to know that the problem is on your machine and not in the distribution.

[lmilano]

Re: "Venting" section

That's right, I believe there is value in knowing your problem is something local. I always try to reproduce other people's issues if it makes sense and I have the time.

[grizzler]

Re: "Venting" section

Also, I fully understand kbunt's post, particularly his quote of the most useless answer you can get: 'it works for me...'.

I disagree. The fact that it works for somebody (everybody?) else IS valuable info. There is nothing worse than spending hours trying to fix something that is genuinely broken for everybody. Sometimes you just need to know that the problem is on your machine and not in the distribution.

I'm not convinced.

Unless you're the very first to encounter it, if it's a distribution problem, there will usually be posts about it on the forums. So you start by searching those. At least that's how I go about it. I've only asked a question about a specific problem once so far (and that wasn't even a real question, just a comment I made which triggered a useful response from someone). All the other info I've been looking for, was readily available by simply searching on this and other forums.

For someone who doesn't search first (yes, I know there are plenty), the 'it works for me...' reply still won't be of much use. It may tell him it's not in the distribution, but other than that, he'll have nothing to go on.

[kevinc]

Re: "Venting" section

Why not call in "Venting" as suggested by Oceanwatcher?

Venting in one form or another can help the person doing the venting, but it can also hurt others.
Venting could be constructive, letting others know how frustrated for example some are feeling. This may be due to problem they are having with latest install / update / program not working / etcetera.

The number of posts suggest that many people like to have their say. Also reading the opinions of others gives the readers a broader perspective than their own. In some cases, they may feel support, in other cases there may be something to learn.

Any tool or device or forum can be used constructively or otherwise. It depends on the user. It's in your hands. What are you going to do with it?

[grizzler]

Re: "Venting" section

KFN is about 'helping' users of Kubuntu. A post to vent ones frustrations may be cathartic to the poster, but serves no other (useful) purpose, again, IMO.

See the last sentence of the post you're replying to. I think it can help others as well.

Ranting without substance is my issue. If one rants, but provides substantive information, then, even if not in the form of a question or plea for help, we may be able to assist.

One use of the section: moving a thread there when it's starting to look like nothing but a rant. That was only part of Oceanwatcher's suggestion. The other target (if I understand Oceanwatcher correctly) is to give people who have exhausted their options (maybe even after many lengthy 'normal' threads elsewhere) a place to 'write their testimonials' (to put it mildly). You don't like that. I agree with Oceanwatcher that it can be useful.

[Oceanwatcher]

Re: "Venting" section

First of all - I am impressed by the activity in this thread. I would say that a discussion like this is both healthy and useful. It is posted in a part of the forum where one is not supposed to ask for help, you are supposed to make suggestions on how to improve the forum. And I guess debate if it actually is an improvement. So I think this whole thread is very much on topic.

Second - To sum things up - some people do not like others venting. So for all of you, I think it would be good to have a place to send those threads so that you do not have to see them anymore :-) It would certainly get the hair out of your soup! Let's face it - there will always be someone that makes posts that do not fit the "book" on how it should be done. This way, instead of anyone having to resort to harsh words and namecalling, the whole thread can just be moved.

For the others, it would provide a place for people that need to blow off some steam to do so without incurring the wrath of the seasoned forum members.

One more thing: I do not like misuse of this forum any more than others. And if any threads turns out to be used to spread misinformation, they could also be moved to this section. That would definitely be a way to prevent Kubuntu Forums to be taken over by anyone.

I think it is a win-win situation and a valuable addition to this forum.

[kbunt]

Re: "Venting" section

I can see the point of some of the users who think the venting is unproductive and I think they are concerned about users who are so frustrated and angry that they end up posting insults and critiques about Kubuntu. Personally, I think one can find something they don't like about any OS or anything in general but for a user support forum, you help for free and most people just want to read requests for help without a lot of negative emotion in it, I guess.

Still, like you said, it's probably a good thing to have the extra frustrated users' posts to be moved to such a section so one knows what they might be reading if they don't like that kind of thing. I do believe such users usually calm down and want help so they will eventually have a post in which they read who tries to help the most (you can tell the responders who aren't too negative towards the complainers and who aren't too sarcastic/hostile/irritated in their replies).

It depends on whether they want to give an outlet for that sort of thing, though. Some people are so frustrated, they are ready to give up so they give the impression, they don't even care to be helped. But, I believe part of them DO want the assistance if they can get it and want to solve whatever problem they have. Even if they 'leave frustrated', it might be an issue that interests other readers, you never know.

Just giving my two cents (Cdn, though...so not much).

[lmilano]

Re: "Venting" section

@oceanwatch: I agree with everything you said in your last post, so I support the initiative. BTW: Are any admins reading? Who is/are the admin/s here?

@kbunt: true. They might be looking for help, but insulting a group of volunteers trying to help, and a team of mostly volunteer developers/translators/documentation writers putting together the software they are using for free (in all sense of the word), this is clearly not the way. So, if they can vent up in a vent forum, calm down, and then ask, fine with me.

I would add the extra suggestion that people posting in that forum need to follow the code of conduct, like everyone else:

http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=319.0

This includes us, regulars. We should refrain from departing from it, even when people come here with clear bad intentions. We need to be able to alert the moderators in extreme cases, ignore the rest, but not enter "dirty" discussions. There is nothing worse than feeding the trolls. That's exactly what they want.

[GreyGeek]

Re: "Venting" section

I can see the point of some of the users who think the venting is unproductive and I think they are concerned about users who are so frustrated and angry that they end up posting insults and critiques about Kubuntu. .....

There are some low posters who've posted a problem, wasn't responded to or didn't find the help that was given to be satisfactory, and then launched into a rant out of frustration. These folks are not a problem ... they have a problem and they've escalated the rhetoric in order to get more attention, like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

My concern has always been about the low poster who has never asked for help but after a few innocuous posts suddenly posts a huge rant against Kubuntu, KDE4, GNOME or Linux in general. Like the rant that spawned this thread on venting, the OP followed up gentle responses with continue ranting without asking any specific questions, and raised the ante by including preemptive responses to anticipated replies. This guy wasn't looking for help and he wasn't venting frustrations over some Kubuntu problem. He was engaged in classic astroturfing as Joe Barr described in his article "SLIME". Continued engagement merely gives him a platform and a megaphone from which to continue his tirade.

Low post ranters who never expressed a problem in previous msgs but launch into a rant should have their rants deleted and their accounts canceled. Rants by anonymous posters should be deleted immediately.

[Oceanwatcher]

Re: "Venting" section

This guy wasn't looking for help and he wasn't venting frustrations over some Kubuntu problem. He was engaged in classic astroturfing as Joe Barr described in his article "SLIME". Continued engagement merely gives him a platform and a megaphone from which to continue his tirade.

And this is exactly why it would be good to move threads like this to a separate section where everyone expect to find this type of posts. If this is what is expected, it will not really have any impact. It keeps the rest of the forum clean, and it keeps irritation away from other users.

This means that the rest of the forum will be clean and those that do not want to bother themselves with this kind of posts never need to go there.

An addition - a report button that flag a post or thread as a possible vent candidate could be good to have. So instead of engaging in a discussion in a thread like that, just flag it, and let a moderator move it.

[lmilano]

Re: "Venting" section

An addition - a report button that flag a post or thread as a possible vent candidate could be good to have. So instead of engaging in a discussion in a thread like that, just flag it, and let a moderator move it.

Yes, we need a button like that, another button to mark a thread as SOLVED (instead of asking people over and over), another to report SPAM ... . There was a request for that but I don't think it went very far, I can't remember the reason.

[GreyGeek]

Re: "Venting" section

+1


Yesterday a spam msg was posted with XXX rated porn pictures. I clicked the "Report to Moderator" but I don't know how long that msg stayed in the thread. There are kids who use this forum.