Windows vs. Linux [my usage]

[life0riley]

...

So my question to you is... where do you mount stuff like a CIFS/SAMBA mount? If you don't want to put it under /home? Also, when I put a CIFS mount in FSTAB, I get all these errors at startup and in the end it gets mounted anyway. I know it is possible to mount it anywhere and then it gets listed in the "devices" section and then you can add that device to places.

...

I suggest trying Smb4K if you are not looking for a permanent mount. I only connect to Windows shares on my network when there is a need. Smb4k creates a subdirectory in a user's home folder, and Windows shares are mounted as subdirectories within.

[GreyGeek]

"iShiny syndrome" - I like that.

The literacy site won't be of much use to iShiny users because those devices don't have Java installed.

[Qqmike]

"iShiny syndrome" - I like that.

Somehow I missed that. That's good. In fact, many iShiny users not only don't know about computing, they are not the sharpest pencil in the box when it comes to money, costs of owning and using their iShiny's. Talked to a gal I know pretty well who keeps up with every iShiny, she proudly brought her latest iPhone over for me to see, asked her what it cost. "She says happily, just $30 a month." "What?" I say. "Yeah, $30 a month," she replies. "That's it?" "Well," she says, "yeah, for 24 months." Ok, I'm thinking that over $600 right there, must be the cost of the device? (This gal makes just $10/hr as a caregiver, doesn't own a place yet, drives an older car.) "And do you pay for data or anything?" "Yeah, that 'part' is just $65-$80 a month." What! Well, this IS America, whatever flips your switch, you are free to pay and play ...

[life0riley]

...I'm thinking that over $600 right there, must be the cost of the device? ...

What is a good price for an iShiny alternative? My wife got a Samsung Galaxy S5 for about the same price.


-posted from my iShiny 4S because it still works and I'm too cheap to buy a new one

[Qqmike]

Probably should start a new thread on that long, messy issue! (An S5? AT&T just offered me a free one, with a 2-yr contract.) But that's another subject.

[claydoh]

Yeah, I plan on getting an LG G4 when my contract expires, Big Red offers no interest monthly payments, so with zero down, I'd pay approx 23 bucks a month for the phone, offset by a similar reduction in the line fees.

I haven't paid up front for a phone ever, but I think the carriers are beginning to ween us off the subsidy thing, yay!

sent via tapatalk

[life0riley]

I'm not in a contract and my wife's Samsung S5 wasn't purchased in a contract. It is no interest monthly payments. I figure when her S5 is paid off I can start looking for my replacement. I've had it since 2012 and it just works, so I'm not in a hurry.


Sent via Tapatalk from my iShiny 4s because it still works and I'm too cheap to buy a new one

[Qqmike]

Interesting:

Adwww.att.com/SamsungGalaxyS5Get the Samsung Galaxy S5 Free at AT&T® w/ 2-yr Agmt. See Offer Dtls.
Ratings:Sign-up 10/10 - Reception 8.5/10 - Website 8.5/10

It's at the top of my page here:
https://www.google.com/search?client...utf-8&oe=utf-8

But I don't see it or find it when I click the link and search. I got the offer yesterday by snail mail.

[GreyGeek]

A big difference between Apple and Android products is the ability of the consumer to replace the battery. With Most (all?) Android devices when the battery gets weak or fails you can buy a replacement battery from just about any battery vendor and replace it your self. If your iPhone battery fails you must send it to Apple along with ~$150 and wait a couple weeks to get it back. that is one reason why my iPad 4th gen has been setting in my desk drawer unused for the last three years.

Being able to remove the battery yourself is a significant security feature. Even with the cellphone turned off conversations within the sensitivity range of the mic can be remotely monitored. The GPS is active as well. Removing the battery restores privacy.

[life0riley]

A big difference between Apple and Android products is the ability of the consumer to replace the battery. With Most (all?) Android devices when the battery gets weak or fails you can buy a replacement battery from just about any battery vendor and replace it your self. If your iPhone battery fails you must send it to Apple along with ~$150 and wait a couple weeks to get it back. ...

Yes that sucks.

I have been lucky so far. My wife wasn't so lucky. Her iPhone 4s wifi went out. It is exactly as you say. We were told we have to send it to Apple and pay $200 for a refurbished iPhone 4s. Why would we do that with only 5 months left on the contract?

[SteveRiley]

With Most (all?) Android devices when the battery gets weak or fails you can buy a replacement battery from just about any battery vendor and replace it your self.

In theory. Some manufacturers have eliminated removable covers and batteries in an effort to make their phones thinner. My Nexus 4 was built this way. The back doesn't remove easily; I was able to replace the battery by partially disassembling the phone. Samsung has historically offered easy user replacement; however, the new Galaxy 6 eliminates this feature. There is speculation that the forthcoming Note 5 will follow the same path.

[life0riley]

Don't get me wrong with this derogative iShiny.
I'm talking about a certain 'class' of users not necessarily about all users or the hardware.
I do talk as the user of an 4S and it's great hardware with sometimes brain dead software, a simple example is the keyboard with only capitals.

Privately I have a Nexus 4 and it's (for me!) so much more logic than the Apple.
Plus there is no KDEConnect for iOS

In my opinion, with interest at the bank below 1%, there is no reason to hire a phone so I bought it off the Dutch version of eBay and just got a contract for minutes and MB's, I'm paying €10 for 300 mins + 750 MB /month.
To put it in perspective, there are many months I have 0 use because there's usually WIFI and VOIP.

No offense taken. I saw "iShiny" and ran with that. I really did make it my signature in Tapatalk, but turned it off after posting. I figured that joke was stale and it would just get obnoxious after a while.

Plus there is no KDEConnect for iOS

This is a serious consideration when I select my next smart phone. I use Windows to sync my iPhone with iTunes, and that is one of the last few things I still use Windows for.

[GreyGeek]

Despite iPhone's easy to use interface it amazes me how many people I've communicated with who asked me how I did something. Besides reading the iOS 8 manual I have my 9 year old grandson to consult. He makes the iPhone6 stand up and dance.

[GreyGeek]

In theory. Some manufacturers have eliminated removable covers and batteries in an effort to make their phones thinner. My Nexus 4 was built this way. The back doesn't remove easily; I was able to replace the battery by partially disassembling the phone. Samsung has historically offered easy user replacement; however, the new Galaxy 6 eliminates this feature. There is speculation that the forthcoming Note 5 will follow the same path.

That's not good news.

[xennex81]

I'll respond to these individual posts now since I have the time and also the pain preventing me from doing anything else.

OK, so you're the one person who cares about the number of items in /. Why?

I'm not the only person. The majority of people cares or would care. The Linux people you know are not "average people". You/they are 'blindfolded by sheets of love' ie. you are so infatuated with Linux that you can't see what's wrong with it anymore. Ask any average person whether they feel having a clear or neat or concise display of "pathways" presented to them is important or valuable and they will concur. Put them to a usability test where they have either 8 or 16 root folders to choose from (or any folders anywhere) and they will pick 8 as the more usable number. In general you want branches to not be more than say 8 at any point, when these are meaningful categories (instead of lists of items). The same applies to e.g. roads or train stations, it is friendly and usable if there are not more than 8 directions to choose from. Most train stations in the Netherlands follow this model, by natural design (geographically). Even Amsterdam C.S. or Utrecht C.S. have at most 8 directions. For Amsterdam this is West (leading to Haarlem), West (leading to Alkmaar), West (Leading to Hoorn), South (leading to Schiphol), South (leading to Duivendrecht), East (leading to Utrecht), East (leading to Amersfoort) and that's about it. There are 8 wind directions and it's a sort of holy number on a flat surface. The I Ching is composed of 8x8 hexagrams. Actually 8 trigrams. So having 8 directions to choose from is a very natural thing for humans. Noon, Dusk, Midnight, Dawn is four, as are Summer, Fall, Winter, Spring. Indians considered 4 the holy number and they had four colours: red, yellow, black and white. But 8 is the directions of a spider's wheel (perhaps, I don't know) and it has 8 legs. But to get back.

Ask anyone who is not invested in Linux whether they would choose 8 or 16 and they'd choose 8. People generally care about having uncluttered systems or desktops, wardrobes or closets, much of anything. If you don't care or your friends, that doesn't mean much. You are already deeply invested. Being "logical" doesn't mean much or make much sense. How can ugly be logical? Most regular humans would prefer readable words like "user" instead of "usr", clearly these names were not chosen for ordinary people but only for brevity. WTH does "etc" mean? It is meaningless to me. Explain that to someone. This was not made for being pretty, only efficient. Not made for being readable, only fast (for a typer). Is it any wonder that GRAPHICAL SYSTEMS (where you don't have to type) diverge from this mindset and their usability factors are different from those of the systems for which that "FHS" was developed? Life proceeds out of your intentions and usability of graphical systems was NEVER a factor in it's design, hence it cannot result in being usable.

So you see clearly that having this archaic FHS does not agree well with attractive or usable presentation for a GUI system or GUI user.

You are free to mount things anywhere you want -- so long as you have, or can obtain, correct privileges. And you will, of course, need to navigate to wherever that is. There's no getting around this. What is your complaint, exactly? That you have to do work?

Usability is all about efficiency in the tasks you perform. FHS was developed for efficiency in certain tasks. We now have different tasks. It is not efficient for those tasks.

And then you end up with multiple copies of various libraries and other ancillary files. While a handful of Linux applications rely on static linking, the majority do not -- they expect the system to provide libraries and for these libraries to be in semi-standard places.

The "DLL hell" as rumoured for Windows was never that bad. Most programs installed a few libraries but not many. Any Windows program will run on any Windows system without orchestration. By contrast a linux program will only work due to extremely extensive orchestration that we know as the package systems. That is a liability and it often breaks, just read Scarlett Clark's latest email in the dev list. It is a source of constant horror and difficulty. In the past with RPM systems and newest-version-software it was often impossible to get anything running for a casual user like me. How to get the required libs? It was impossible. By contrast in Windows it always just worked because the software vendor took care of the dependencies. No trouble with wrong glibc's and all that. Just a moment ago it was said that VMware didn't work on newer kernels. It is constant issues. Now SystemD is binding all apps to Linux exclusively preventing ports to BSD. Because it requires all of the newest features of the newest kernels. Where does it go? Where does it end?

I never had problems installing ANYTHING in Windows save for the occasional (but rare) broken package or installer. Never for mainstream software. No headaches ever. I don't think library duplication ever caused a lot or overhead. Besides it allows for programs to be shipped with the libraries they were designed for.

Even installing Linux-based packages that required additional components (e.g. GhostScript) was an immediate pain. They copied the Linux model of independent distribution causing more work. Installing Python in Windows was also such a problem. Thankfully, e.g. Gimp doesn't do this anymore. Gimp comes with its own Python installation (and GTK etc) and it just works. Of course now you may have two pythons on your system but it doesn't matter and disk space is cheap. And no headaches for the user.

In Windows, C: is a storage volume name. Only volume names are exposed to normal operations; device names aren't typically revealed. Linux makes a distinction between device names and storage volume names. In Linux, everything is a file. This is a philosophy you must accept and become familiar with. Devices must be mounted into the tree and given a mountpoint; the mountpoint becomes the volume name.

My whole issue was with "volume names" and their accessibility, whether the devices they are backed by are accessible on their own is irrelevant. This was pure about the directory tree, I don't care about /dev, in fact it is pretty clear that /dev is powerful for shell scripting but I don't know how the Windows API handles it. It is clear I can't do in Windows what I can do in Linux.

What mess? I find the FHS imminently logical. You're generalizing here.

"Only illogics can find flaws in a straight logic line". Look it up, it's from Carbon Based Atoms. Pretty nice music (ambient). Most people would not find the "mess" of what it is today orderly or neat. What the hell should I do with /srv? Why is there /run and /var/run? Why /run and /proc if they are both about PROCESS information?? Why /sbin and /usr/sbin? Why /usr/local that is never used, just some empty stale directories. Someone clearly didn't clear this out in a long time. Talk about an unorderly house. Why /opt? It only makes sense for something like a Synology NAS where the system is an appliance and /opt houses all additional packages you may install. Is /opt synonym for "commercial" or "closed source"? Most OPTIONAL packages install to /usr/bin etc. It's so Logical!!!!!

Actually /opt is the only thing that makes sense to me because it houses external or independent programs that were developed by third parties for their own reasons (the way it should be).

And it's exactly the same in Windows Explorer. Want to make a folder? You have to be in the parent folder first. Want to make a system folder? You have to be in the top level of the volume (like C:\) and have appropriate privileges. Linux and Windows, with their respective graphical file managers, are the same. So again, what's your complaint?

The difference is that Windows has only a few root folders with descriptive names as does MacOS. "Program Files" is not helpful because of the space. "Program Files (x86)" is even more annoying. Windows is not perfect. Typically you don't traverse the root of C: these days because there's not much there. You use D: and so on for your own stuff. Libraries are accessible through Explorer as is the Desktop etc. The GUI is just so good that everything works. There is no "/media" or "/mnt", all drives are accessible through drive letters in a non-redundant fashion, network shares are easily added, thanks to the drive letters and the run dialog it takes a fraction of a second to open any explorer window to any location if you're an advanced user. Without much configuration, this is out of the box. Nothing to think about, just works. Traversing to the root of the C: is fast though if needed and up (or down) into subfolders is blazingly fast (they ruined the thing by removing the "up" arrow or icon) all you need is a few keys. Works better than MacOS (finder). They say QuickSilver on the Mac is excellent but I never tried it.

I don't know why but in Dolphin it just doesn't work like that, either the keys don't work or there are too many icons with hard to read names, the spacing of the icons is too big, the view modes are not well designed. I cannot blindly get anywhere. Most of the view modes are useless to me (actually there are three and all three are defunct), metadata is displayed in bad locations with too small fonts or not at all. You can add extra info but it is added to the ICONS which is hideous. Very badly designed, not at all a good choice. Metadata is hard to see, always at a loss for needed info (such as date/time or size). Buh, real poor quality. I could spend 3 hours designing a better mockup and it would surpass what they have now. Why don't I do it? I'd have to do it in Linux lol. Back in Windows I could do that stuff in Delphi but that's a long time ago. In Linux I can't even get a word document out because I try to do it in Calligra and it fails. And I haven't tried OpenOffice yet (LibreOffice sucks (even more?)). I tried OpenOffice on Windows, it looks better, the interface is cleaner (than LO) (much better icons etc.). And LibreOffice and Calligra are not compatible in their Document Format. Krita seems to work, Gimp is still a pain, Inkscape is excellent but it's been a while, and these are the tools I have available.

Okay so consider my USB stick. In Windows it is mounted at I:. It takes me 6 keypresses to open an Explorer window at its location. This takes me about a second. All of the windows required also pop up instantly and in the right locations.

Now consider Linux. I have to type "/media/xen/stick" in a Krunner window that I can hardly see because of its positioning, that has an animation in its displaying that takes time, and that shows stuff I don't want as I type. I guess. Takes me at least 10 seconds to accomplish because of all these factors. First the location disorients me, then the text to type is very long, it takes a bit of remembering (thinking) and then I'm stuck with a Dolphin window I can hardly use. Lot faster to use the mouse to find the discredulous location where I have Placed the Stick after I have found a way to open or locate a dolphin window. Which requires me to choose between reusing a window or opening a new one, but I think I have it bound to Win+E. Still takes at least 6 seconds for me and disorients me. Pretty greatly.

No aspect of Linux has ever made such a demand. You are free to roam wherever you wish across all file systems that you have access to (subject to privileges, of course).

Earlier it was said that the cluttering of the root folder didn't matter because an ordinary user rarely needs to venture outside /home. This was a response to that statement. My usage requires me (currently) to traverse / frequently (graphically) and it doesn't even fit in a single window, so many icons there are. Traversing is not a pleasurable experience and hence not something I like to do. Opening a shell and instantly jumping to a location with e.g. a shell variable is a lot faster but I don't know how to do that in KDE, nor do I want it (the way it is now). Dolphin would have to improve immensely to stop disorienting me, Krunner would have to be in a different location, etc.

Windows, like Linux, requires you to elevate your privileges even if you're a local administrator when you want to make system-wide changes.

Actually making root folders in Windows is without elevation. But the point was that (without that root actions thing) editing a config file in Linux is a pretty common thing and from the GUI not a streamlined process. In Windows you don't need to edit config files ever (almost ever).

We are talking about streamlinedness constantly. It is something you don't get. Maybe your Linux system is so highly configured that it is now streamlined for you but that required a lot of hard work. Most people here spend a lot LOT of time configuring their Linux systems. My Windows experience is out of the box. Because smart people have done the hard work for me and millions of customers. There is logic to user interface design. You can design something that works better for EVERYONE. It is not a random experience. It is a science..

Anything else is cynicism.

The FHS predates most Linux GUIs.

That's what I was saying.

It's true that Linux and Unix have accreted some things that could have been done differently. But in general things work, and there are good reasons. Please don't assume that just because you don't see any "well-founded reasons," such reasons don't exist.

I was talking about having well-founded reasons MYSELF for saying the things I do. And well-founded reasons for the status quo depend on its goals. For certain uses or targets of the Unix system there were (or are) well-founded reasons for having it this way. But we're talking about a GUI now and real usability, not just running a server. These things diverge. What works well for one task may not work well for another.

I have no issue with FHS on my Synology NAS. I rarely traverse the file system and I never do it graphically. I have issues getting to places for lack of a real QCD (Synology buries stuff deeply) but it's overseeable. I have no issues on the Debian shell server cq. webhost. Root is meaningless there, only home exists. I am never exposed to the real tree. I have shell variables for all locations and I only use SSH. Different usage, other purpose. I have no issue or little with the other Debian server. Haven't done much with it, only SSH.

https://www.google.com/?q=fstab+smb

Well thanks for giving me a google query without providing an answer. At least now I know that there IS an answer, but I can't be sure. Maybe it's fud.