What is KDE?

[Ole Juul]

I was just reading the thread on Kde-minimal, and it made me wonder why KDE includes applications by default? That has caused great confusion for me when, for example one wants to install Konqueror on, say BSD, one has to install a large collection of application. I understand there are dependencies, but this is obviously the result of some other concepts. The way I see it, there confusion between the OS and the WM. I guess KDE is both. Is there a name for that? What do others think?

[Snowhog]

Re: What is KDE?

The answer is in the E of KDE. E=Environment. KDE isn't a Windows Manager - KWin, the application, is.

[claydoh]

Re: What is KDE?

KDE is the DE, Kwin is the WM for KDE.

I am willing to bet that quite a lot of the deps for, say Konqueror, are as much a result of packaging more than anything else. A lot is completely dependent on how things are packaged, independent of the Distro. Konqueror is so much more than just a browser, so by default it would need a lot of those things for full functionality. I am sure that a base browser-only Konqueror could be packaged, but I think it might just be too much work for the small use case - you might even have to have a separate binary for this (though I doubt that is the case). Plus there is already Rekonq

[Ole Juul]

Re: What is KDE?

The answer is in the E of KDE. E=Environment. KDE isn't a Windows Manager - KWin, the application, is.

Not that's informative! I've never heard of anybody installing KWin by itself and then adding applications. I guess one could go "apt-get install kwin". I just checked, and indeed I have it installed as a separate package. I wonder why people don't do that, it seems like it would be so much simpler. Next time I have an empty machine to fool with, I'm going to give it a try. Anyway, I can't believe I haven't come across this before.

[Ole Juul]

Re: What is KDE?

KDE is the DE, Kwin is the WM for KDE.

I am willing to bet that quite a lot of the deps for, say Konqueror, are as much a result of packaging more than anything else. . . .

Yes Konqueror is no doubt a big affair. It's interesting though that it's not available outside of the base package which includes Kate, which is not available by itself either. I just worry about where this is going.

So KDE is actually a "Desktop Environment". That makes sense, but isn't that what an OS is nowadays? I don't think the kernel is of much interest to most people and if it changed they probably wouldn't care - or notice.

[Qqmike]

Re: What is KDE?

(not for you guys, but maybe for new folks looking in on this ...)
I need to review/revise this, and I need to read it myself, but at one time I tried to lay out these various distinctions here, along with some history:
Kubuntu & KDE 4 desktop interface: concepts, terms
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3099993.0

[Ole Juul]

Re: What is KDE?

(not for you guys, but maybe for new folks looking in on this ...)
I need to review/revise this, and I need to read it myself, but at one time I tried to lay out these various distinctions here, along with some history:
Kubuntu & KDE 4 desktop interface: concepts, terms
http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3099993.0

What do you mean "not for us guys"? I should have read that before I posted. There is a lot of information there, like versions and dates and much more. I think you've gone a long way in explaining some things that are not at all obvious. One of the things which is hard to unravel is the difference between the window manager and the desktop environment. With all the changes that keep happening, the line between them is getting blurred because they are getting increasingly interconnected it seems.

[claydoh]

Re: What is KDE?

not, it has always been this way at least in kde/gnome. thats kinda the point, actually. KDE has always had Kwin, gnome had Enlightenment and then Sawfish, followed currently by Metacity, and soon to be replaced by Mutter. (Compiz is an alternative wm that can replace kwin or metacity)

fluxbox, openbox, etc are Window Managers as they basically, well, manage application windows, desktop background, and not much else. No file manager, no email client, no wireless connection tools on their own. Just the window decoration and background, and often a menu, taskbar, etc

A desktop environment brings in a unified set of tools/applications/etc with a common look and configurations setup.

more links to muddy it up a little :

http://xwinman.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_manager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_environment
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Desktops

[Ole Juul]

Re: What is KDE?

Thanks claydoh. Those are interesting links.

From the first link:

KDE is a modern network transparent desktop environment which uses the Qt cross-platform GUI toolkit. It contains a base set of applications such as a window manager (called kwm), web browser, instant messenger, and integrated help system, all with a consistent look and feel, and translations for over 50 languages.

What is particularly interesting is that there is no mention of either kwm or Kwin in their long list of window managers. I wonder why that is?

The Wikipedia article (2nd link) on window managers is also interesting in that it does not mention kwm although it talks about Kwin. A particularly relevant quote from that article:

Few window managers are designed with clear distinction between the windowing system and the window manager.

. . . fluxbox, openbox, etc are Window Managers as they basically, well, manage application windows, desktop background, and not much else. No file manager, no email client, no wireless connection tools on their own. Just the window decoration and background, and often a menu, taskbar, etc

I'm quite familiar with fluxbox which is a good example of how I think (or thought) of the WM situation. IOW one installs: OS -> Xorg -> WM -> applications. As an amateur, I find that easy to understand - it's simple. And I agree that things like taskbars and other desktop utilities seem logically connected. However, applications like e-mail clients, sound, and wireless connection tools, make me confused. How are those related to a DE? Sometimes it is indeed handy to have things figured out for you, but like in the case of sound and networking it seems there are just a likely to be conflicts with the OS. When it comes to something like an e-mail client or file manager, I think those are clearly applications, but it appears that purveyors of fine software such as KDE.org see it differently.

[Rog131]

Re: What is KDE?

I was just reading the thread on Kde-minimal, and it made me wonder why KDE includes applications by default?...

KDE does not include applications by default. KDE is offereing the source code.

To download source code...

Packages. Some Linux/UNIX OS vendors have kindly provided binary packages...

Packages are made by the distributions (Debian -> Ubuntu, Suse, Mandrake, ...)

There are packages and there are metapackages.

> Metapackages

One of the handy features of apt (the packaging system used by Ubuntu) is the use of metapackages. These packages do not contain actual software, they simply depend on other packages to be installed...

kde-minimal

This metapackage includes the core official modules released with KDE.

kde-multimedia

This metapackage includes multimedia applications provided with the official
release of KDE 4.

The Kubuntu developers are making the kubuntu metapackages...

kubuntu-desktop

This package depends on all of the packages in the Kubuntu desktop system.
Installing this package will include the default Kubuntu Plasma Desktop

Yes Konqueror is no doubt a big affair. It's interesting though that it's not available outside of the base package which includes Kate, which is not available by itself either...

and

package: konqueror

KDE 4's advanced file manager, web browser and document viewer

package: kate

KDE 4 Advanced Text Editor

You could install and remove single packages/application. You don't need to use the metapackages if you don't want to.

Not that's informative! I've never heard of anybody installing KWin by itself and then adding applications. I guess one could go "apt-get install kwin". I just checked, and indeed I have it installed as a separate package. I wonder why people don't do that...

Well - the people are doing it and has been doing it from the start of the epoch .


You could install the 'buntu (Ubuntu without the gui) and pick your own applications.

Earlier > Topic: [SOLVED] Building a light KDE4 desktop for a netbook, off of Karmic.

[Ole Juul]

Re: What is KDE?

Thanks for a very informative (as always) post Rog131.

Rog131: KDE does not include applications by default. KDE is offereing the source code.

It took me a minute to figure out what you meant, but now I get it. That would account for some of my misunderstandings. For example Konq and Kate, would be put into a package (ported from source code) for BSD which is specifically where I've seen that problem. I hadn't tried doing them separately with Kubuntu because I thought I had to use kubuntu-desktop.

Packages are made by the distributions (Debian -> Ubuntu, Suse, Mandrake, ...)

Yes, now I see.

There are packages and there are metapackages.

Good point.

You could install and remove single packages/application.

Depending on what the distribution has chosen it would seem. Unless one wants to, and is able, to compile the applications oneself.

You could install the 'buntu (Ubuntu without the gui) and pick your own applications.

I've done it on a couple of machines using Ubuntu Server as a base. I was never able to find any other non-GUI version using Google. I've heard references, but no links.

So, assuming I can find "'buntu" (or use the server version) then I would be able to install:

'buntu -> Xorg -> kwm -> Kwin -> applications

I wonder what would be needed which is not pulled in by that approach. Automounting, sound, anything? Would there be conflicts?

[claydoh]

Re: What is KDE?

Thanks claydoh. Those are interesting links.

From the first link:

KDE is a modern network transparent desktop environment which uses the Qt cross-platform GUI toolkit. It contains a base set of applications such as a window manager (called kwm), web browser, instant messenger, and integrated help system, all with a consistent look and feel, and translations for over 50 languages.

What is particularly interesting is that there is no mention of either kwm or Kwin in their long list of window managers. I wonder why that is?

I would assume because it is an integral part of the DE, and not necessarily designed to run on its own

The Wikipedia article (2nd link) on window managers is also interesting in that it does not mention kwm although it talks about Kwin. A particularly relevant quote from that article:

kwm was the original name of the window manager component back i KDE's early days, and became or was renamed to Kwin

Few window managers are designed with clear distinction between the windowing system and the window manager.

. . . fluxbox, openbox, etc are Window Managers as they basically, well, manage application windows, desktop background, and not much else. No file manager, no email client, no wireless connection tools on their own. Just the window decoration and background, and often a menu, taskbar, etc

I'm quite familiar with fluxbox which is a good example of how I think (or thought) of the WM situation. IOW one installs: OS -> Xorg -> WM -> applications. As an amateur, I find that easy to understand - it's simple. And I agree that things like taskbars and other desktop utilities seem logically connected. However, applications like e-mail clients, sound, and wireless connection tools, make me confused. How are those related to a DE? Sometimes it is indeed handy to have things figured out for you, but like in the case of sound and networking it seems there are just a likely to be conflicts with the OS. When it comes to something like an e-mail client or file manager, I think those are clearly applications, but it appears that purveyors of fine software such as KDE.org see it differently.
[/quote]

It is probably safe to say it is all about integration , or perhaps the level of visual, ui, and configuration integration someone wants. You can obviously run on sort of app in another DE. Yes, it may be required to install a passel of extra libraries, but really look at the filesize of what is being downloaded as opposed to the physical number of packages. I am always slightly shocked at the number of packages required when installing something heavily Gnome-ish in Kubuntu, but the actual download size isn't always very large, and often is mostly the back-end libraries, icons, and various ui bits - for example kate needs a file chooser, so that component is needed.

Of course the beauty of it all is you can always get whatever you want the way you want it in some fashion or another in Linux. that is why some distros such as Arch and Gentoo are always popular - they specialize in this more than ubuntu does.