[workaround exists] Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

[doctordruidphd]

I have made several posts regarding this problem, and so far no solutions. So I am going to summarize what I know here, and see if any ideas emerge.

1. I cannot boot k/u/x/buntu live cds. The problem started with Jaunty -- I could boot the u/xu/buntu cds, but not kubuntu. The problem is worse in Karmic -- I cannot boot any of the live cds. What happens is I get the screen for selecting language, then the menu for run without installing, install, etc. Choosing any option results in the screen going black/blank, with a cursor in the upper left. The cd spins for a second or two, then stops, and that's it. Hard power off is the only option, no response from CTRL-ALT-DEL, ALT-SYSRQ-REISUB, or anything else.
I have tried changing F4-safe mode, f6- all of the options, and editing the boot options line, removing the quiet and splash, adding various vga= options that I know work with grub. Same death.

2. Today, I downloaded the latest Sidux CD. Sidux is, like ubuntu, a debian-sid based distribution. The last version with the 2.6.31 kernel booted fine, but todays, with a 2.6.32 kernel, dies just like the *buntu disks. Well, almost like them. I get the test screen that says the kernel is loading, the dots, then ready. Then death.

3. The lucid alpha cds do the same. Same goes for the "alternative cd", same death, same place.

4. Trying to upgrade a karmic system to lucid results in a non-working system. It appears to load the kernel, then a mess of udev messages (which I also get from a working sidux system), then a message saying it is starting the crypto disks, then death. Boot freezes, but interestingly, CTRL-ALT-DEL will reboot the system. No logs, or any other info, are being written to the file system. This suggests that the file system is not mounting. I have tried rebuilding the initramfs, removing plymouth and splash, chaning vga= and gfxpayload options - nothing.

Yeah, yeah, "lucid is alpha", I know that, but the others are not, and an ominous pattern is emerging here. I really don't want to think about what happens if I can't run linux on this system. So I want to get to the bottom of what this problem is. Or at least find out just WHAT to file a bug report on.

So I suppose I'm really on a fishing expedition here, looking for some answers.

First, to find out if there is anyone out there who has similar hardware and has it working; or maybe figured out how to get it working.

Second, if there are any ideas how to go about filing a bug report, and exactly what I should be reporting a bug with.

Third, if maybe I've missed something, or what else I could do to determine the problem.

This system is:
Dell XPS-630i
NVIDIA system board
Intel Q9550 Core2 Quad cpu (64 bit)
8gb ram
dual/sli NVIDIA GForce 9800 GT video (I have tried removing the slave card, no help)
2 sata drives, 1 sata cdrom and 1 ide cdrom

Output of lspci:

00:00.0 Host bridge: nVidia Corporation C55 Host Bridge (rev a2)
00:00.1 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:00.2 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:00.3 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:00.4 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:00.5 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a2)
00:00.6 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:00.7 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.0 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.1 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.2 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.3 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.4 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.5 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:01.6 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:02.0 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:02.1 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:02.2 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation C55 Memory Controller (rev a1)
00:03.0 PCI bridge: nVidia Corporation C55 PCI Express bridge (rev a1)
00:05.0 PCI bridge: nVidia Corporation C55 PCI Express bridge (rev a1)
00:09.0 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation MCP51 Host Bridge (rev a2)
00:0a.0 ISA bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP51 LPC Bridge (rev a3)
00:0a.1 SMBus: nVidia Corporation MCP51 SMBus (rev a3)
00:0a.2 RAM memory: nVidia Corporation MCP51 Memory Controller 0 (rev a3)
00:0b.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation MCP51 USB Controller (rev a3)
00:0b.1 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation MCP51 USB Controller (rev a3)
00:0d.0 IDE interface: nVidia Corporation MCP51 IDE (rev a1)
00:0e.0 RAID bus controller: nVidia Corporation MCP51 Serial ATA Controller (rev a1)
00:0f.0 RAID bus controller: nVidia Corporation MCP51 Serial ATA Controller (rev a1)
00:10.0 PCI bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP51 PCI Bridge (rev a2)
00:10.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP51 High Definition Audio (rev a2)
00:14.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP51 Ethernet Controller (rev a3)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G92 [GeForce 9800 GT] (rev a2)
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G92 [GeForce 9800 GT] (rev a2)
03:05.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Agere Systems FW322/323 (rev 70)
03:07.0 Communication controller: Conexant Systems, Inc. HSF 56k Data/Fax Modem
03:08.0 Audio device: Creative Labs SB X-Fi

Hopefully we can sniff this out, so I won't have to bore everyone with this further...

[vinnywright]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

I am by no means an expert on your situation but you asked for ideas.......so hears wat I'm thinking.......................................... .......

well you say you tryed removing 1 vid card ....you did reset the BIOS for 1 card right.....I thought I read someware that linux dident like SLI on vid cards?

and that lspci output is showing RAID controlers ..... are you using RAID ?? agin I thought linux dident like RAID eather......(but you wouldent think it would mater on a livecd)

and the 2 cdroms 1 IDE and 1 SATA .......mabe try 1 at a time first just SATA then just IDE and make shure to repin the jumper to master on the one you leave and try that way ...................

and thinking along the lines of cd misdirection .....have you tryed a liveUSB if your BIOS will let you?

what I gess I'm saying is I'd strip it down to 1 vid card 1 cdrom and disabell RAID (if using it) and if it works then start adding thing's back 1 at a time untill it brakes agin and you should have the culpret..........assuming it will boot striped.

and pardon me if you'v allreadey tryed all that........

VINNY

[Fintan]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

I am by no means an expert on your situation but you asked for ideas.......so hears wat I'm thinking.......................................... .......

Dito that.

Just a stupid question from the sidelines.

You are using 64 bit live / alternate cd's ?

I ask because I know that 32 bit systems won't go above 4 GB Ram

[spottedhog]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

I am not an expert either, but I will add this...

Is your LiveCD created ok? Sometimes, if the CD is not created properly, strange things happen.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

Thanks to all who replied. I've pretty much covered all of those bases. Specifically:

Is your LiveCD created ok? Sometimes, if the CD is not created properly, strange things happen.

Yes. Downloads verified with md5sum, disks verified after writing. The pre-lucid disks will work in virtualbox, though the lucid and new sidux disks do not. This is, by the way, not useful for installing a new system because the hardware simulated by VB is not compatible with the actual system (I did try that, though).

You are using 64 bit live / alternate cd's ?

Yes. The 32 bit disks, no matter how old, will not boot at all, and never have.

well you say you tryed removing 1 vid card ....you did reset the BIOS for 1 card right.....I thought I read someware that linux dident like SLI on vid cards?

There does not appear to be a bios setting for the number of video cards; in fact, nothing for video, since the board does not have on-board video. SLI actually works very well in jaunty and karmic, using a custom xorg.conf. Of course that can't affect the CDs, and the problem with lucid exists whether the NVIDIA driver is installed or not.

and that lspci output is showing RAID controlers

RAID is disabled in the bios. I am not using any form of raid, and I tried the option in the disk menu to disable raid, without success.

and the 2 cdroms 1 IDE and 1 SATA

Tried removing one drive or the other, no joy.

have you tryed a liveUSB if your BIOS will let you

I haven't had any luck booting off a USB, but I will try again.
Edit: I tried both karmic and lucid images on a usb stick. Same problems. Great idea, though.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Keep those cards and letters coming, please!
Hopefully we'll find this eventually.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

Update: I discovered today that the 32-bit live cds for karmic k/ubuntu DO boot, though I have not tested them. Converting the system to 32 bit is not an option (too big a performance hit), but it might suggest (to someone) what is going wrong.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

I was exploring that problem after a failure to run of a USB LiveCD I made this afternoon on a dependent's machine. The menu came up but when I chose the first option the USB stick flashed for a few seconds and then stopped flashing. The menu never went away. His machine was a two day old ASUS notebook that was offered on sale at BestBuy for $429. 3GB of RAM, 2.2 GHz dual core, 15.5" display, webcam (which shows the image UPSIDE DOWN!), and Windows 7 Home Premium. He used Win7 for ONE DAY and wanted me to scrub it and replace it with Kubuntu. I used the Lucid Lynx iso, which passed the md5sum check, and it turned that PC from a DOG to a DREAM! So, I was a little surprised when the LiveUSB wouldn't run properly.

I took that same USB stick and on my Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E/H and, using the same ISO that was used to create the LiveCD that was used to install LL on his PC, run the "Startup disk creator" menu option. The only thing I did this time that I didn't do previously was go do some exercises on the Wii for an hour. When I came back the dialog said it was 100%. I took it out and set it aside. When I saw your post I decided to try that USB stick. I am running under it right now as I type this post, so it is working well.

I have three LiveUSB sticks in my pocket. All are on 8GB sticks. One is Jaunty, one is Karmic and now one is Lucid. All run nicely when booted.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

OK, I'm not quite sure I'm following here.

What I did was download and verify the iso files for the cds. Then I tried burning and verifiying the cds, and they don't work. I used usb-creator-kde to create the usb stick from the very same iso. It has the same problem, will get to the menu but will not boot linux. All this with 64-bit software.

I do not have another 64-bit machine to try it on, so I cannot boot the USB, and I'm not sure where the startup disk creator menu is. I do have access to a 32-bit laptop, but I cannot install on that system and copy over, as the hardware is completely different. The 32-bit system's bios does not boot USB devices.

[vinnywright]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

have you tryd the minimal install disks.....and then build on that.

it would be like jumping thrugh hoops to get thare but if it will boot..........

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/In...tion/MinimalCD

still dosent explane wats up but mabey thay will work?

VINNY

[GreyGeek]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

OK, I'm not quite sure I'm following here.

What I did was download and verify the iso files for the cds. Then I tried burning and verifiying the cds, and they don't work.

I assume you mean that you verified the burned LiveCD and they passed verification, but when booted they show a menu but none of the options work?

I used usb-creator-kde to create the usb stick from the very same iso. It has the same problem, will get to the menu but will not boot linux. All this with 64-bit software.

The menu option "KGear --> System --> Startup disk creator" uses the usb-creator-kde binary to make the LiveUSB.

I do not have another 64-bit machine to try it on, so I cannot boot the USB, and I'm not sure where the startup disk creator menu is. I do have access to a 32-bit laptop, but I cannot install on that system and copy over, as the hardware is completely different. The 32-bit system's bios does not boot USB devices.

The good LiveUSB of Lucid Lynx that I made using the LL ISO released yesterday, 1/8/2010, was made on this box, which is running a fully updated Karmic. The LiveUSB which failed to boot was made on the ASUS, which was running the freshly installed Lucid Lynx (from a DVD made on THIS Karmic). The LL ISO that was used was also the LL ISO of 1/8/2010, downloaded into the ASUS, and md5sum verified, just before the LiveUSB was made. It booted to the menu but all options refused to run. I took it to this notebook and it also booted on this box but all menu options on the LiveUSB refused to work after a brief period of light flashing on the USB stick. I rebooted this Karmic, and using the LL ISO mentioned previously, created a LiveUSB stick which ran well, and from it I posted my previous message.

It is not possible for me to draw a conclusion that LL installations cannot create good LiveUSB sticks from proven good LL ISO's, but that does appear to be the case.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

Thanks again to those offering suggestions. I am trying them all. I did file a bug report, which the person reviewing assigned it as a casper bug. We shall see.

have you tryd the minimal install disks.....and then build on that.

I downloaded and verified the mini.iso for karmic 64-bit. Put that on a cd. Tried booting, and it dies in the same place. I get the message saying it's loading the kernel, the dots, loading initrd.gz, the dots, and then it hangs.

I assume you mean that you verified the burned LiveCD and they passed verification, but when booted they show a menu but none of the options work?

Right.

The menu option "KGear --> System --> Startup disk creator" uses the usb-creator-kde binary to make the LiveUSB.

Tried that with the 64-bit karmic iso, which died in the usual place. I am in the process of downloading the current lucid daily iso, will report the results back. All of this work is being done on karmic 64-bit, all updates applied, no ppas.
I have not been able to successfully update this system to lucid, so I can't try that. The first time I tried the upgrade, it worked, but since Jan 8th, upgrading killed it, and every attempt to do another upgrade results in a dead system. I get death right after the udev messages, but, CRTL-ALT-DEL does work in this case. The file system is apparently not mounting at all, as no logs are being written. Haven't been able to figure that problem out, either, but I'm waiting for the next alpha build before I scream too loud about it. I just have a funny feeling that these problems are related -- something in the initramfs that my system really doesn't like.
Another interesting thing I noticed is that the most recent lenny disk 5.0.3, won't boot, either. BUT, when I remove my hard disks, it does boot. Apparently it can't recognize ext4, which is what all of my HDs are. I did try booting karmic and lucid without the HDs plugged in, no joy. Just more data.

Edit: Tried the latest lucid iso, same issues.

[verndog]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

Here's two more to try creating LiveUSB flash drives with.
Unetbootin and LiLi USB Creator

Both work well. Both can create LiveUSB on both Windows and Linux.

I create a LiveUSB for the current Ubuntu and strange that using Windows to create the LiveUSB booted much faster than using Ubuntu to create the LiveUSB. Someone pointed out that Ubuntu uses an older syslinux version. I don't know how that would cause problems. Only thing I can think of.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

I don't think the problem is with creating the USB drive itself. The usb-creator software seems to be doing what it's supposed to do -- creating a USB from an iso that boots off a cd also boots. I think the problem is more with the iso itself. Every iso that boots from CD that I have created a USB with boots, and every one that doesn't boot from CD also does not boot from USB. I will take a look at those, but I really think the problem is elsewhere.

Edit: Tried the unetbootin, same problems. Sorry, no m$win for the lili.

[verndog]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

The problem is that you can't boot any livecd or liveusb? If so, use F6, which will put you at the end of the line. Then remove quiet, splash so you can see where it stops or the last message you get.

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Problems booting live cds and lucid upgrade

The problem is that you can't boot any livecd or liveusb? If so, use F6, which will put you at the end of the line. Then remove quiet, splash so you can see where it stops or the last message you get.

Yep. Done that, also tried xmodule=vesa, vga=788, vga=vesa, removing splash and quiet, and a few others, along with F4- safe graphics mode. Nothing. What happens is after I select either run... or install..., the screen immediately goes black with nothing but a cursor in the upper left. The cd drive spins for a few seconds, then stops. The only way out is a hard power down; see my first post in this thread for the gory details. There is no text kicked out at all. Now on the Sidux disk, I do get the text saying it's loading the kernel, then done, then freeze. And on the ubuntu mini-iso, I get the message sying it's loading the kernel, then the initrd.gz, then dead. And the same problem with the alternative cds. I'm beginning to think it's really a kernel problem. This happens both with cds and USB sticks.