Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

[0x00FE]

when I first started with Linux, I tried few distros without having anything in mind. I was a complete noob in Linux that I went to a computer shop asking for a Linux & the guy ended up giving me a Red Hat distro that was incompatible with almost all the hardware in my laptop.

My friend, whom I can call a Linux professional suggested I'd try Ubuntu, since I liked KDE my choice was Kubuntu.
After using Ubuntu/Kubuntu for about 2 to 3 years now I can say I'm quite happy with it until my friend raised a point. Ubuntu/Kubuntu libraries are old & a lot need to be updated.

You can notice that when a new version of a certain software is released at a certain time & the time it takes for that version to be included in Ubuntu releases or updates.

My friend had serious issue on a data server & lost a whole raid 5 array of about 8 Tera bytes after doing an upgrade. I think he managed to recover that at the end if I'm not mistaken.

Anyways, what he is saying is that Canonical is too lazy to keep their packages up to date & that bugs fixed up to a year back still exists into their OS.
Since he is the guy whom introduced me to Linux & has always been their to support me when I'm in need of assistance before I signed into this forum; I have huge trust in him.
He is now "ditching Kubuntu" for OpenSuse. Not just that, he is also asking me "Why do you like Kubuntu? Why you do not want to change?"

To be honest with you, I like the OS, perhaps because it is the one I started & got along with, perhaps it is the superior support I got & still get through this forum.

But the question is, what to do & why?
There is no question that many of the packages are out of date in Ubuntu, but is there anything we can do?
Why does such a popular distro suffer from that?

[toad]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

First off, I don't understand the statement that Kubuntu uses old libraries. Fair play, if you still use 04.06 or something like that then it may be true. However, if you use the latest release it is, well, rubbish.

I ditched kubuntu and suse (in them days it was still suse) and debian and mepis and all the rest of them when I heard of the idea of a rolling release distro. This addresses the issue of old software beautifully in that there are no releases. Instead, if a new version of foo comes out it is packaged and available pretty much immediately. AFAIK there are two major rolling release distros: sidux which is debian based and therefore easy-peasy for an old kubuntu hand or there is ArchLinux.

I went for the latter just to try out something new and get a deeper understanding of my system, but Sidux is also perfectly acceptable if you don't want to do everything by hand.

hth

[Guest]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I am tempted to do the same. I am an old-school SUSE user (started with 6.* release...my last version was 8.*). However I am not a Linux expert (far from in) in spite of my years of having Linux installed.

I installed Kubuntu 7.04 (Feisty Fawn) 2 years ago and had to do a lot of tweaking to get things to work as they should. To be fair though, it was my first Linux install on a laptop (Acer 3680 model) and I got everything squared away in a few days (including wireless).

I decided to get a copy of the latest Kubuntu release (9.10 - Karmic Koala) and while it looks much better graphically than 7.04, I just cannot get internet working on it! I also don't like the new menu (well is that a KDE thing?) and how tough it is to get to the shell. 3rd party apps seem lacking and/or the interface to install new programs is.

I thought maybe I was losing my mind; then I reinstalled Kubuntu 7.04 and immediately got wireless working and could find things on the menu much easier.

Now that SUSE is up to an 11.* release...I'm very tempted to check it out!

[dibl]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I just cannot get internet working on it!

That is not a common problem, although I managed to find an Asus motherboard about a year ago that had an ethernet chip that Kubuntu did not support out of the box. But a driver was available -- it merely needed to be compiled. It should not be difficult to fix whatever is wrong with your networking situation.

I also don't like the new menu (well is that a KDE thing?)

Well, if you don't like it .... yep, it is KDE 4. There's no fix for personal preferences.

and how tough it is to get to the shell.

How hard is Alt-F2 "konsole"? And that's the first time you use it. The second time, and ever after it, it will be Alt-F2 "ko" and hit Enter and you're there.

3rd party apps seem lacking

I'm not sure what "third party" means, in this context. There are over 20,000 packages in the standard repo, and then there are other repos (like Medibuntu) where you can get more packages .... ?

and/or the interface to install new programs is.

Yes, I must agree, that's a long-standing issue. However, just

sudo apt-get install synaptic

and use synaptic. It works just fine. (So does "apt-get" at the konsole, by the way.)

Now that SUSE is up to an 11.* release...I'm very tempted to check it out!

Go for it -- satisfy your curiosity. I'm a confirmed Debian guy, myself. I also use sidux, because of the "rolling release" feature mentioned above.

[kubicle]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I also don't like the new menu (well is that a KDE thing?)

You can switch to the "traditional" menu, or install/use lancelot menu, which is often considered an improvement over the default kickoff.

how tough it is to get to the shell.

Yakuake is a great shell program, start yakuake and you have a shell with a single keyboard shortcut (F12 by default)...You can of course create an icon or a keyboard shortcut for konsole as well.

These tips are useful for opensuse as well

[planetman]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

AFAIK there are two major rolling release distros: sidux which is debian based and therefore easy-peasy for an old kubuntu hand or there is ArchLinux.

I came to Kubuntu recently from PCLinuxOS, which is a rolling release distro. I wouldn't be here now if they had a 64 bit version. But Kubuntu is growing on me. Everything works and it looks nice. I can't think of any reason why I would want to install anything else.

Mark

[Ole Juul]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

But the question is, what to do & why?

I think that depends on what is important to you. To me basic philosophy and ethics are important issues. I want to know where a distro is "coming from". I won't use Microsoft because (among less important reasons) I don't like their ethics. I won't use Suse because they made a secret deal with Microsoft which they won't reveal. Ubuntu has recently been going in a direction that is questionable to me - although I have great respect for Shuttleworth and what that distro has done for the Linux world. These are all personal decisions, but I think that kind of thing has to be addressed before more detailed choices are made. Is open source important to you. What do you think about software freedom?

There is no question that many of the packages are out of date in Ubuntu, but is there anything we can do?

There is always something you can do. You can get involved in many places and make a contribution. People write this software mostly because they want to and have a personal interest in it. It is very different from most proprietary software. If you can write code, you can make a direct contribution and then other people can use YOUR code. Don't forget to keep it up to date.

Why does such a popular distro suffer from that?

This isn't proprietary software. It will move with the winds of change in the developer community. Nobody can say exactly how they want everything to be because coders don't have to listen to somebody that isn't paying them.

BTW, don't feel you have to be loyal to a single distribution. There is nothing wrong with distro hopping and looking around. Choice is the the key word here. What you can do is decide what you will accept, which is a long way ahead of the average Microsoft usage where you are told what you are have to like. If every Ubuntu user was to give $200 to Canonical every couple of years, they'd be able to fix all the things you are concerned with because they would be calling the shots. One can usually buy what one wants and it always a little more difficult to get it your way without paying. However, with Linux, because you have so much freedom to chose, you can come close.

One more thing. I often forget that Linux is not an OS. I think others do too. If you want a more coherent package regarding libraries, kernel, utilities, applications, and documentation, try FreeBSD. It will even run Linux programs. I'll leave the BSD vs GPL license discussion for another time.

[MoonRise]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

Heck, I use Kubuntu as a primary, but I have others that I use as well. yes, I have seen where the Buntus lag a bit on newer releases of other Apps, but for the most part, I've always been able to find a reliable DEB file here or there. What you want to do is really up to you. Only you can make that call, but don't think you have to be loyal. You do, however need to make that choice. Because the person who helped you get acquainted with Linux feels the way he does about it (trust me though, I understand why he would going though that) doesn't necessarily mean you need to follow.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I am tempted to do the same. I am an old-school SUSE user (started with 6.* release...my last version was 8.*). ..

My second Linux distro, in Sept of 1998, was SuSE 5.3. Between 5.3 and 8.0 I purchased 22 boxed sets of SuSE. Then, Novell bought them and I moved on.

....
I also don't like the new menu (well is that a KDE thing?)

Right mouse on the K-Gear and choose "Classical menu". Respond appropriately and you have KDE 3.5's menu! How tough is that?

and how tough it is to get to the shell.

Ctrl+Alt+F2 doesn't work for you? Or, K-Gear --> System --> Konsole? Unless you boot into a shell, getting into a shell isn't any easier in any other distro. You can right mouse on Konsole and chose "Add to Panel". Then, getting to the Konsole is merely ONE CLICK away!

3rd party apps seem lacking and/or the interface to install new programs is.

There are some 3rd party repositories that you can activate in the package manager. And, you can add other repositories (like Medibuntu, or the PPA, etc...). If you don't like KPackageKit you can open a Konsole and issue "sudo apt-get install synaptic". Synaptic is, IMO, the best package manager available.

I thought maybe I was losing my mind; then I reinstalled Kubuntu 7.04 and immediately got wireless working and could find things on the menu much easier.

You may have a "legacy" wireless chip. Click on K-Gear --> System --> Hardware Drivers and see if it sees your wireless and installs b43-fwcutter.

Now that SUSE is up to an 11.* release...I'm very tempted to check it out!

openSUSE is a nice distro. I have a soft spot for SuSE, but not for Novell. I cannot be a party to their "agreement" with Microsoft, in which Novell's Hovsepian "admitted" that Linux contains MS IP and also agreed to pay Microsoft a ROYALTY for each copy they sell of their commercial version of Linux, SELS. They also agreed that Microsoft would not sue any FOSS coder whose code made it into SELS (but not openSUSE) but held open the threat of lawsuits against all other FOSS coders. That part of their agreement violates the GPL because it creates a dichotomy which the GPL doesn't permit -- that certain recipients of GPL code have more freedoms than other recipients ... to wit: those who purchase SELS are free from threats of lawsuits by MS, but not those who use openSUSE or other Linux distros (except those which also signed "confessions" with MS) are not.

[Fintan]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I can only concur with all of the above.

I have the latest suse and Kubuntu 9.10 / 10.04 alpha on my machine.

To be honest I don't see any real difference in app. versions between the two.

Suse has a consistant look from boot to login and they have "tweaked" kde4 to thier liking, which bthw is not mine.

Suse also has a neat system configuration set up, but that for me is a detail.

I see no difference in speed either.

So the real question for me, if I were to choose, would be the choice of package management. Having used Kubuntu / Debian for quite some time I just prefer apt-get (synaptic) / deb to yast (slow and clunky) / rpm.

So much for my 2 cents

[GreyGeek]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

.....
So the real question for me, if I were to choose, would be the choice of package management. Having used Kubuntu / Debian for quite some time I just prefer apt-get (synaptic) / deb to yast (slow and clunky) / rpm.
...

I tested openSUSE 11 (LiveCD, IIRC) and came to the same conclusions you did. My biggest complaint with SUSE is YaST2 (the graphical version of the old YaST console program) and the techniques used to configure SuSE (SUSE). They may have changed it by now but when I was using SuSE YaST2 was an interface to a script which controlled about 20 other scripts. Even if you made a change in a single parameter in a single area, say the printer setup, YaST2's script cycled through ALL of the other 20 or so scripts and ran each one. If you changed a setting in the master script to do the configurations manually it was not possible to switch back to giving YaST2 control.

The other problem I have with openSUSE and SLES is that Novell is fusing them with Windows API (MONO). My sig is the response to that. IF it ever becomes impossible to find a distro without MONO fused into it then I shall chose the lesser of two evils - Apple.

[verndog]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I can only concur with all of the above.

I have the latest suse and Kubuntu 9.10 / 10.04 alpha on my machine.

To be honest I don't see any real difference in app. versions between the two.

Suse has a consistant look from boot to login and they have "tweaked" kde4 to thier liking, which bthw is not mine.

Suse also has a neat system configuration set up, but that for me is a detail.

I see no difference in speed either.

So the real question for me, if I were to choose, would be the choice of package management. Having used Kubuntu / Debian for quite some time I just prefer apt-get (synaptic) / deb to yast (slow and clunky) / rpm.

I came to the same conclusion. The reason I started looking elsewhere from suse was using the LiveCD openoffice crashed trying to open a new label. The same thing happened when I installed it. I got very little response from the suse bug web page. I did find someone to verify that indeed it did crash.

Then I tried Kubuntu, and your right, speed is not that much different, and I missed aptitude and the gang using suse.

I might try it again in the future though. It was very responsive and polished.

[assettt]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

I'll say many thanks to a Suse and a clunky and unresponsive Yast that forced me to look for other linux distro and I found Kubuntu. but as others have said check out the competition and chose the one that best suits you.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

...
I ditched kubuntu and suse (in them days it was still suse) and debian and mepis and all the rest of them when I heard of the idea of a rolling release distro. This addresses the issue of old software beautifully in that there are no releases. Instead, if a new version of foo comes out it is packaged and available pretty much immediately. AFAIK there are two major rolling release distros: sidux which is debian based and therefore easy-peasy for an old kubuntu hand or there is ArchLinux....
...

For those that aren't sure: a Rolling Release is a method where a distro continually releases OS, desktop and application updates to its distro and in the process the user's installation is gradually brought up to the level of the next "release". Then, on a milestone date, the distro developers release a new ISO file which represents the distro as the new version. This is different from Kubuntu's release paradigm in that development on the next release is done in a different tree in the VCS, or even on a different server(s). Users of the current version receive patches and updates relating to the release they are running, but such files may or may not be part of the next release. To upgrade to the next release the user must either reinstall or run an upgrade script which does some massive file and configuration changes to convert the old installation into a "new" one, as if it had been installed from the new ISO.

While upgrades usually go well for most people, sometimes, on some machines, or with some folks, the upgrade doesn't go so well, so they have to reinstall, from scratch anyway. Some, like myself, prefer to reinstall from scratch using the new ISO rather than run the upgrade script.

The "Rolling Release" is OK if you happen to be one of those lucky folks who switched to the distro on or shortly after a milestone ISO release. But, if you happen to come to the party late then after you install the ISO your are faced with MEGABYTES of downloaded updates just to bring your installation up to date. When the size of the updates approaches the size of a release ISO it's about time for the developers to release a new milestone ISO and give it a new version number. So, Rolling Releases are good only for the individual who adopts a distro and STAYS WITH IT for more than one release cycle. Distro hoppers never benefit from Rolling Releases, and late comers are penalized for not trying the distro on or shortly after a milestone release.

I've used both kinds of distros. It doesn't matter to me what development method a dev crew employs because I do a lot of testing, changing and playing. IF I was not retired and in a development environment again I'd probably go with the Rolling Distro and stay with that distro for at least 3 or more years.

The ONE thing I miss that Kubuntu does not seem to support is listing the previous version, current version and next version of a package in Synaptic. All Kubuntu shows is the current and next version AND those two are the same for all installed packages. It defeats the purpose of being able to revert to and pin the previously used version of a package if the new version gives problems.

[dibl]

Re: Ditching Kubuntu for OpenSuse?

GG is correct on the pros and cons. One other point is that the difference beween

apt-get upgrade

and

apt-get dist-upgrade

becomes considerably more important for rolling release distros. New packages can be added to the repos, and existing packages can be replaced/superseded by new packages (new names, not just new versions). You need "dist-upgrade" to catch the new packages and have the dependencies handled correctly.

Just FYI.

I run sidux/KDE, in addition to Kubuntu -- I find them very complementary operating systems. Plus, at least one of them is always working ...