Practical reason for minimizing programs

[Ole Juul]

Is there a practical reason for minimizing a program on the desktop? I have never done it and wonder what advantages people get from doing it. My theory is that it is a hangover from the early days of MS-Windows when multitasking was not well developed - but perhaps I'm wrong about that. Personally I have never encountered any technical reason to minimize, but do other people have a different experience in this regard?

On my (not very) modern Kubuntu 8.04 machine I just leave everything running in case I want to use it again. It's not like it takes up any physical space, besides, I have different things on different desktops. I even have large numbers of windows open on a single desktop which I just cycle through with Alt-Tab. Since KDE doesn't complain, I'm puzzled at what problems other people have encountered that would make them want to minimize a program - or is it just an old habit?

[Snowhog]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

I'm sure that it's just 'habit.' I do it regularly. Often, it's just to keep the active desktop 'uncluttered.'

[Telengard]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

* If I want to admire my spiffy wallpaper, then I use Ctrl+Alt+D to quickly show my desktop background.

* I have no evidence to prove this, but I think some memory intensive programs may consume less resources when their GUIs aren't on screen and therefore don't need updating.

* If I happen to be browsing a particularly tasteless website, or just doing something private, I may want to quickly hide it from passers-by. KDE makes it easy to quickly hide the taskbar too.

* Like Snowhog, I too sometimes feel the compulsion to unclutter my desktop. KDE tends to offer many very simple ways to do this, which is another reason to prefer Kubuntu over other OSes.

[sithlord48]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

i don't think there is a technical reason for minimizing windows. back in the day it could have had to do w/ the video card not being able to update all of them @ once. and there may be some truth also to them using less resorces when off screen as telengard suggests. i only do so to keep the clutter away.

[askrieger]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

I keep my desktop(s) uncluttered by running 10 separate desktops, each running ONE program, usually the same one (e.g. Konsole on 1, Konq on 2, Ff on 3, Synaptic on 4, etc.) The desktops are distinguished by their background images when no program is running on that particular desktop and program choice is accomplished by clicking on the appropriate item in the taskbar.

Accordingly, I haven't minimized a program since KDE introduced multiple desktops. This may use additional memory (or even cause excessive swapping that I haven't noticed), but my machine is still faster than I am.

[sithlord48]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

I keep my desktop(s) uncluttered by running 10 separate desktops, each running ONE program, usually the same one (e.g. Konsole on 1, Konq on 2, Ff on 3, Synaptic on 4, etc.) The desktops are distinguished by their background images when no program is running on that particular desktop and program choice is accomplished by clicking on the appropriate item in the taskbar.

to me that seams a bit on the crazy side however, i tend to use only one desktop and no more then 4 but only in the context of "activities". that currently has only really been to test i have yet to get them set up how i like them or for that matter decide what to do w/ each "space" i have created

[askrieger]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

to me that seams a bit on the crazy side

The great thing about Linux, though is that everybody can be crazy in their own way.

I was thinking about how I'd go about determining whether a particular set of habits, e.g. one desktop, N minimized programs vs. N inactive desktops each holding one active program. The idea is to run a particular task (I was thinking of compiling a 5,000 or 10,000 line Fortran program with an optimizing compiler)under both circumstances. Compilation seemed like a good test (compared to things like computing Fibonacci numbers or rendering a high resolution image of the Sistine Chapel ceiling) because it uses both memory and CPU power and (with modern machines), you need a BIG source file to get task completion times that might be statistically significant, and Fortran seemed like a good language for the test because Fortran compilers are written to optimize the output code (not the compilation process).

[Ole Juul]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

To me the important thing about using desktops instead of minimizing, is ergonomic. Minimizing (from what I can tell because I've never tried it) involves complicated use of the mouse. That is to say, you have to keep your eye on the cursor and move it - usually quite far. Long mouse movements disrupt concentration for me. I tend to use short (and practised) movements which usually land in the right place without much distraction of my concentration from changing my mental focus away from the text or other subject matter. Moving the cursor from one corner to the other is just a lot of work, that's all. Perhaps that kind of thinking comes from being an instrumentalist. In my youth, when I was studying violin, my teacher made me learn the easiest way to make every movement on the instrument and then practice it. That is the only way to develop skill. When I see pop guitarists look at their fingers, I reel embarrassed for them, because they are not going in the right direction and will fall far short of whatever their potential was. The same way with "playing" a computer. The idea of following a cursor around with your eyes is very primitive to me. I just cant bring myself to embrace it.

Changing windows within a single desktop involves two fingers. What's more, those fingers are in a natural positional relationship. Thumb on Alt and first (pointing) finger on the Tab. It is easy and natural to flip between open windows and not a lot of the nervous system or mental cognisance is involved. One huge advantage of that key combination is that it is on the left side for right handed mouse users.

Changing desktops is a little more difficult, and people with small hands will likely need both hands even for the first four. I find that I can use my palm on the Ctrl key quite easily. Learning movements like that is like learning any other instrument. It eventually becomes relaxed. Of course everybody will need two hands for including desktops 5 and beyond. Still, is it not easier to hit Ctrl-F8 (for example) than it is to unminimize a program? Does it not envolve less of the senses?

Another thing about using multiple desktops is that it is a method of organizing your work space. Instead of a single dimensional, one thing at a time in front of you, it is possible to organize things in a grid. I think of the desktops as being the x-y coordinate and windows (depth) as being z. Left - right, in - out.

On desktop number one, I always have three terminals open in a layer. I could do this using different consoles, but KDE is not good at switching GUIs between consoles, so I do it this way. KDE is so functional within itself that it works well to just open a bunch of terminals. I know, I should probably use screen, but that's another learning curve. On each of the next 5 I have different browsers. Using different ones makes it easy to keep them separate. FireFox for example, cannot run different instances, so using different browsers solves the problem of keeping the different desktops separate. Within, say the FF desktop I typically have 20-40 windows open. Alt-Tab (left hand) shows a menu and I click my choice, or cycle between a couple of them without using the mouse or even looking at what I'm doing. Speed and ergonomics rule in this environment. I'm basically lazy.

Obviously, I could go on for hours on user interface issues. I should probably save that for a blog post - or book!

Thanks everybody for your input so far. I really appreciate it!

[Jonas]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

Interesting topic! Out of Windows habit I use one desktop(but have 4) and minimize alot. I'd like to adopt more to using the other desktops but old habits die hard :S I haven't yet got used to all the quick access functions, so there is alot of "mouse-time" for me. I minimize to unclutter the screen, I have however started to use the "active screen borders" which I find very neat and time saving ( it do involve moving the mouse). Mouse up to left showes all windows on this screen, mouse up on right shows all windows on all screens.

I also use the mouse-over to switch between windows but there are some pros and cons to that too, mouse can override the effect of alt-tab for instance or if one use alt+F2

I'd like to get hold of a "mousetrapper" device and it would really save some time and shoulders. They are sooo expensive, €200-400, or a "cheap" one (cheap in more then one aspect) for 100 € > I guess it comes from almost exclusively selling to the office market/companies (*hint*if anyone have one laying around I'd be happy to buy it*hint* )

I have a window handler idea however, but I'm not sure there is one like it, I haven't seen anything on KDE-brainstorm. I'd like a bar, or a stick, that would hold and control several windows and you can attach windows to it, for instance all toolboxes, layers etc in GIMP, and give them one control bar (or window handler/decorator). I know there are tabs and the new(?) way of docking windows/programs together, but sometimes I'd like them to be more visible yet semi-attached to each other.
There is probably one out there, though I haven't found one, or a workaround.

It's interesting how much the tools, be it physical or digital can save your time and soar back, I'll come back to this thread further on to pick up some more tips and input.

*PS; Im on the OS with swedish translation atm so the names of 'activities' may be wrong*

[askrieger]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

@Jonas: The pointer device that I use (for ergonomic reasons) is the so-called "Kensington Expert Mouse". It is actually a large diameter (~5 cm) track ball. The user's arm and wrist remain in a constant position, e.g. resting on the arm of a desk chair while only his/her fingers move to direct the pointer. The only problem is that, (like an ordinary mouse) you have to remove your pointing hand from the keyboard to use the mouse. This does not bother me because I am an inept typist who removes his hands from the keyboard frequently to find the appropriate key.

[dibl]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

The Compiz "cube", spun with the mousewheel, is my alternative to minimizing windows. No need to minimize windows when you have as much horizontal desktop space as you can ever use. Just spin the mousewheel if you need one of the other packages, until you see it. And they call it "eye candy ..."!

[sithlord48]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

Changing desktops is a little more difficult, and people with small hands will likely need both hands even for the first four. I find that I can use my palm on the Ctrl key quite easily. Learning movements like that is like learning any other instrument. It eventually becomes relaxed. Of course everybody will need two hands for including desktops 5 and beyond. Still, is it not easier to hit Ctrl-F8 (for example) than it is to unminimize a program? Does it not envolve less of the senses?

a good portion of that bulkiness could be resolved if kwin would reconize mouse input for its desktop effects. then desktop change actions could be initaited via a combo of keypress, and mouse event. that would uitilze the location of almost all uses second hand. and involve less physical movement to do things like use the desktops.

Interesting topic! Out of Windows habit I use one desktop(but have 4) and minimize alot. I'd like to adopt more to using the other desktops but old habits die hard

that could be part of the reason that i mainly use only one desktop as well, although i have used linux increasingly more over the last several years the "virtual desktop" feature has always been disabled(set to 1 desktop) after install. untill i started to use compiz and its cube desktop plugin.

The Compiz "cube", spun with the mousewheel, is my alternative to minimizing windows. No need to minimize windows when you have as much horizontal desktop space as you can ever use. Just spin the mousewheel if you need one of the other packages, until you see it. And they call it "eye candy ..."!

i always mapped my cube in compiz to crtl+alt+ mouse1 convenent if one hand is on the mouse and the other on the keyboard. now w/ kde4 i use the "home" key on my keyboard (logitech S510) its an extended key on the left of esc, now if only i could get xorg to reconize my "zoom +","zoom -" and "100%" key so i can map those to kwin's desktop zoom plugin.... yes very useful eyecandy... i found the cube to be very useful in my sys admin job when i was almost always using vnc to run several machines at once. one per cube side fullscreened as to avoid confusion between running systems.

[Ole Juul]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

@Jonas: I see simple touchpad devices for sale at 40 bucks. You can also get a keyboard with a touchpad built in on the side or the front. It seems to me that the "mousetrapper" is not much different. That said, don't fool yourself about practicality. Although I don't have a lot of experience with pads, all the ones that I have seen are very impractical for any but the most patient users. A guy showed up here with the latest in fancy laptops a little while ago. After seeing how difficult his expensive "fashionable pointing device" was, I handed him a cheap optical mouse, and I could see the sigh of releif on his face. As the one looking over his shoulder, I also appreciated the speed increse. I've had the same experience every time I've used one of those. The worst solution of all is that little red knob type placed in the middle of the keyboard. The positioning is fine and it is certainly ergonomic - but you need to be really, really patient, because you have to wait for it. Personally I don't think any kind of humanly perceptible lag is acceptable in an kind of machine interface.

The fight between the mouse and the keyboard seems to be ignored by manufacturers. Why are there two enter keys for the right hand and none on the left. I actually know the answer, but my point is that when you have a mouse in your right hand, there are a number of keys which would be particularly "handy" to have available for the free (left) hand. Having to cross over to reach the pgup, pgdn, home, and end keys when using a pointing device is just a joke that makes fools out of computer designers. However, I do think that most people are happy to push a mouse around all day and the very activity actually pleases them. Making computing easier or more efficient is just not of general interest, and only an issue for a very few people.

[askrieger]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

The different interaction styles that we all use emphasizes my point that one of the great things about Linux is the degree to which it is "tweakable" to the preferences of the individual user. The reason that I have always preferred KDE to Gnome is that tweaking KDE is easier (at least for me) than tweaking Gnome.

[Jonas]

Re: Practical reason for minimizing programs

Cheers for the replies
I've tried the a "ball-mouse" some and a touchpad device aswell on laptops (if thats the setup you mean?). My main concern is the right-left movement of the mousehand (especially annoying if you only type quick commands in CLI), this would still be the case with a "ball-mouse" and from the first impression with it (quite some time ago tho) is that it doesn't ease the effort on the mouse hand.
The touchpad from my knowledge and tests not as forgiving as a "mousetrapper" since it's digital as opposed to the mousetrapper that is mechanical and the "wheel"(i.e pointer) is easily moved with your thumb (left or right hand) and since I (everyone?) only use the thumb for pressing space there's no loss.
Also had a look on keyboards with built in touchpads but mostly they are on far right side, thus still have the problem with hand movement.

Anyway I got hold of a Rollermouse Pro for "only" ~€ 50, second-hand, supposedly in good/mint condition.
Another benefit of keeping the mouse device in front of the keyboard is that it leaves you space on the right if/when you use a drawing tablet

The Compiz "cube", spun with the mousewheel, is my alternative to minimizing windows. No need to minimize windows when you have as much horizontal desktop space as you can ever use. Just spin the mousewheel if you need one of the other packages, until you see it. And they call it "eye candy ..."!

Compiz is actually the reason I started to use the other desktops more, seeing the "globe" spin around was a delight ...and showed more potential

The different interaction styles that we all use emphasizes my point that one of the great things about Linux is the degree to which it is "tweakable" to the preferences of the individual user. The reason that I have always preferred KDE to Gnome is that tweaking KDE is easier (at least for me) than tweaking Gnome.

Couldn't agree more!! And I have to add that features are being ported to other OS' as well! Another huge diffrence from Linux is that you as average user are closer to the developers, or atleast I feel like that.
(maybe M$ got their brainstorming sites etc, but with that many users they should have gazillions of ideas .. funny they don't make use it )

Going to pick up that new mouse now Hope it's not too second-hand

/Jonas