Moonlight on Linux

[PhilT]

Can any of the more enlightened "geeks" explain this news? What does it mean? What's de Icaza up to here?

http://newteevee.com/2009/12/19/watc...linux-is-here/

Is it another M$S trojan?

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

Let me put it this way:

This promise was officially called a “covenant not to sue” and seen as the best way to harmonize patent licensing issues with the GPL.

If you believe that, have I got some canal front property on Mars for you!

The problem isn't whether you have non-open source software on your system or not. The problem is how tightly integrated with the basic functionality of the system it is. I use the proprietary NVIDIA accelerated video drivers, to run my proprietary NVIDIA video cards that have proprietary firmware loaded in them. But I can take that stuff out at any time, change video cards, etc. etc. if I decide they compromise the system in some way. Same thing goes for flash -- I can pull it at any time, and everything will still work, except, of course, for flash videos.

On the other hand, if basic applications like the desktop are integrated with mono and other proprietary technologies, then you can't pull them without losing your whole system. On top of that, you never really know what they are doing behind your back, since the code is closed. Remember a few weeks back when Microceph decided to kill all the modified Xboxs out there? What is to stop them, either technically or legally, from killing YOUR computer, if your system depends on code that no one knows anything about? Seems like it defeats the whole purpose of opensource in the first place.

I'm sure others will have more to add . . .

[MoonRise]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

That is M$'s goal. To kill open source. Plain and simple as that. What is sad is that people are falling for this "Hand Out" gesture when it is obvious by the terminology of their "agreements" they have other motives.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

We are pleased to announce the availability of Moonlight 2, an open source Linux implementation of Silverlight first announced by Microsoft and Novell in September of 2007. Moonlight is the first and only open source project that provides Linux users access to Silverlight content. Microsoft has provided Novell with access to its test suites for Silverlight, and provides Linux end users of Moonlight with free access to the Microsoft Media Pack, a set of licensed media codecs for video and audio. In addition, Microsoft and Novell are also announcing the expansion of their collaboration on Moonlight to include support for Moonlight implementations of Silverlight 3 and Silverlight 4. As part of the companies’ interoperability agreement, Microsoft will deliver new test suites and specifications for Silverlight 3 and 4 to Novell.

Microsoft is accelerating MoonLight's invasion of the Linux desktop by giving de Icaza's MoonLight dev team direct access to SilverLight 2, 3 & 4 source code and also access to MS SilverLight test suits to enable de Icaza to make sure that MoonLight 2, 3 & 4 behaves on Linux exactly the same way SilverLight behaves on Windows, except where COM is involved.

The Windows-centric corporations will love this because it means they can port their Windows proprietary applications to Linux with a minimum of modifications or expense WITHOUT going through a MONO filter. A "write once, compile anyware" approach, just like Qt4, only not as free as QT4.

.....
Moonlight development is quickly following the innovation in Silverlight with each release. A preview release of Moonlight 3 will be made available in the first quarter of 2010 with a final release scheduled for the third quarter of 2010. Moonlight 4 will follow shortly thereafter.

In case you had any doubts, or doubted me when I suggested it in other posts, this establishes that Microsoft is, and has been, calling the shots on MONO development. All that's left to do now is for de Icaza to come clean and state what a lot of people have suspected for a long time -- namely, that he is and has been under some sort of contract with Microsoft, either as an employee, contractor or consultant, and with only one goal set before him... Infect Linux with MS API.

In response to feedback from the community, Microsoft has also extended its Patent Covenant to End Users of Moonlight. The covenant is no longer limited to users that obtain Moonlight from Novell or its channel, but now covers users who obtain Moonlight from any third party, including other Linux distributors. Media Codecs for MP3 and VC1, and in the future H.264 and AAC, are supported through the Microsoft Media Pack, a Microsoft-delivered set of media codes that offer optimized and licensed decodecs to every Linux user who obtains Moonlight from Novell.

Concerning the media codes -- expect to see Microsoft VIGOROUSLY attacking sources of the w32 codecs used to give Linux the ability to play movie CDs and view various media ... abilities which any purchaser of a movie should have without having to buy or use a third party product - a requirement that is a DIRECT violation of the Sherman-Clayton AntiTrust Act. Removing Win32 codecs from access by Linux users, even in countries where it is legal to use them, will force Linux users to either do without multimedia access or use Microsoft's Media Pack, via MoonLight 4, in order to play DVD's and the other media.

My read on the rest is that since the Ubuntu Board has declared that future Ubuntu Desktop remixes will be dependent on MONO, Microsoft is shifting its focus from destroying Linux using Trojan Horse MONO IP, since only users and contributors of Novell's SELS distro were protected from threat of a Microsoft lawsuit, to the goal James Plamondon declared, paraphrasing, "Total victory by having Microsoft's API control every desktop, including Linux's" It's obvious they feel they are well along on the road to making Microsoft's API the defacto code base for the most popular Linux distro desktop available, and extending the "patent covenant" and access to MOST of MoonLight's features will hasten that day, with cooperation from it's "partners", third party software houses which write code exclusively for Windows. Another announcement, which i cited in another posting about the topic, concerns Microsoft's addition to SilverLight 4 that will give it the ability to ... well, allow me to let de Icaza explain it.

The most important piece of news from last week's PDC was Microsoft's decision to turn Silverlight into the universal platform for building cross platform applications.

The upcoming version of Silverlight will no longer be a Web-only technology. It will now be possible to build full desktop applications with Silverlight.

Desktop Silverlight applications differ from the standard Silverlight in a few ways:

* Full access to the host file system, like any other .NET application would have.
* None of the socket connectivity limitations that are present on the sandboxed versioned of Silverlight. Full network access (we should build a MonoTorrent UI for it!)
* Built-in Notifications API to show up bubbles to the user when they need to interact with the application.

Although Moonlight has supported this mode of operation since day one, turning this into a standard way to develop applications was going to take a long time. We would have needed to port Moonlight to Windows and OSX and then we would have to bootstrap the ecosystem of "Silverlight+" applications.

But having Microsoft stand behind this new model will open the gates to a whole new class of desktop applications for the desktop. The ones that I was dreaming about just two weeks ago.

With this announcement the problems of WinForm, ASP, ADO, etc., will evaporate, and I expect to see a FLOOD of GUI API's based on MoonLight 4 which will result in the GTK API being REPLACED by direct MoonLight 4 GUI APIs which are actually Microsoft's SilverLight APIs. IOW, the Ubuntu desktop won't be GNOME, or it will be GNOME in name only. It will be GNOMELIGHT, sans the GTK+ API. Expect to see proprietary binary replacements for MOST, if not all, apps based on the GTK API. Those built with MONO/MoonLight but without a COM license will be less functional or able than the MoonLight 4 apps WITH a COM license included.

I also suspect that the vulnerabilities of Window's ecosystem will be imported into those distros that adopt MONO/MoonLight technologies. Expect to see a rapid increase in the number of Linux zombies on giant Windows bot farms.

What it won't mean is MoonLight 4 having access to Microsoft COM technology, so in some respects Microsoft will always keep SilverLight a step ahead of MoonLight, thus giving PC OEM incentives to continue to feature mainly, and for all practical purposes, ONLY Windows on their new hardware.

What also isn't changing is that sometime in the future, at Microsoft's pleasure, they can unilaterally decide to block access to technology in future releases of MoonLight and .NET, thus isolating Linux distros that have become dependent on MONO/MoonLight into old technology.

I am going to continue to stay with Linux distros that remain true to the GPL, KDE4 and Linux native APIs, on which ever Linux distro remains true to those principals. And, if I am ever legally forced off of Linux I will choose the lesser of two evils and use a Mac.

[PhilT]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

Thanks to all for their replies, especially Grey Geek (incidentally I wanted to thank you for your extensive mono posts but you closed the last thread before I could do so; so, belated "Thanks"

Your explanation confirmed my worst fears; please continue to provide these insights because it's very helpful to have explanations from "those that know and can explain". I suspect the vast majority of users are like myself, that is, not skilled or knowledgeable enough to fully appreciate the minutiae of these programming concepts. I do hope that more people (especially, apparently, Gnome folks) will wake up to the dangers before too late. And from what I have read it seems that there has been some back-tracking in the Gnome community to the thrust to inject mono-dependence into the Gnome environment. Let's hope so! It also appears that KDE looks more likely to resist infection. It's a terrible feeling (if you believe,as I do, in the philosophical imperatives of Open Source) to watch what appears to be the creeping slime of proprietary control financing and bribing its way into the "free" world.

Like you, I hope there will always be a Linux distro that remains true to the GPL, KDE4 and Linux native APIs. I wish I knew what one could do to help, besides trying to speak about open source whenever possible, explaining to M$S users, and contributing money to the Open Source foundations and KDE.

[Telengard]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

With this announcement the problems of WinForm, ASP, ADO, etc., will evaporate, and I expect to see a FLOOD of GUI API's based on MoonLight 4 which will result in the GTK API being REPLACED by direct MoonLight 4 GUI APIs which are actually Microsoft's SilverLight APIs. IOW, the Ubuntu desktop won't be GNOME, or it will be GNOME in name only. It will be GNOMELIGHT, sans the GTK+ API. Expect to see proprietary binary replacements for MOST, if not all, apps based on the GTK API. Those built with MONO/MoonLight but without a COM license will be less functional or able than the MoonLight 4 apps WITH a COM license included.

The Gnome users will be so addicted to M$ smack that they'll whore themselves any way they have to to keep the supply of M$ API based apps flowing. Gnome as we know it today will cease to exist as its desktop and major applications are rapidly replaced.

What will happen to our favorite GTK apps like Firefox, Gimp and VLC?

I also suspect that the vulnerabilities of Window's ecosystem will be imported into those distros that adopt MONO/MoonLight technologies. Expect to see a rapid increase in the number of Linux zombies on giant Windows bot farms.

This is the danger of software homogeneity.

What it won't mean is MoonLight 4 having access to Microsoft COM technology, so in some respects Microsoft will always keep SilverLight a step ahead of MoonLight, thus giving PC OEM incentives to continue to feature mainly, and for all practical purposes, ONLY Windows on their new hardware.

Not necessarily. KDE4 is still a viable competitor. If Gnome users want to become dependent on whatever scraps M$ feeds them, that is their own choice.

What also isn't changing is that sometime in the future, at Microsoft's pleasure, they can unilaterally decide to block access to technology in future releases of MoonLight and .NET, thus isolating Linux distros that have become dependent on MONO/MoonLight into old technology.

I am going to continue to stay with Linux distros that remain true to the GPL, KDE4 and Linux native APIs, on which ever Linux distro remains true to those principals. And, if I am ever legally forced off of Linux I will choose the lesser of two evils and use a Mac.

Which Linux distros meet your criteria? I have been searching and I have not yet found where any one distro makes an unambiguous statement against incorporating M$ controlled APIs.

By the way, Mac is not a bad choice. My gf's iMac is a very nice system, very easy to use and maintain.

Have you considered BSD-ish OSes?

[sithlord48]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

By the way, Mac is not a bad choice. My gf's iMac is a very nice system, very easy to use and maintain.

sept for the m$'s API's..... there are even more for mac.

[Telengard]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

By the way, Mac is not a bad choice. My gf's iMac is a very nice system, very easy to use and maintain.

sept for the m$'s API's..... there are even more for mac.

I am still much happier to see her on the iMac instead of using Windows

[GreyGeek]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

.....

What it won't mean is MoonLight 4 having access to Microsoft COM technology, so in some respects Microsoft will always keep SilverLight a step ahead of MoonLight, thus giving PC OEM incentives to continue to feature mainly, and for all practical purposes, ONLY Windows on their new hardware.

Not necessarily. KDE4 is still a viable competitor. If Gnome users want to become dependent on whatever scraps M$ feeds them, that is their own choice.

KDE4 is a viable competitor, but it is not on an equal footing. The new SilverLight rules will give Windows developers, which outnumber Qt4 developers significantly, the same "all-in-one" development tool that Qt4 has offered since the toolkit was released under the GPL. Developers of SilverLight on Windows platforms must obtain a licen$e from Microsoft, at least for the tools, IF they want to write SilverLight application which contains licensed dependencies required for their proprietary binary application to run. Those who wish to sell proprietary binary QT4 applications must also purchase a license, even though every user with the Qt4 library installed has all the dependencies they need to run ANY Qt4 application. So, the contest is between Qt4 developers contributing GPL Qt4 based software for the KDE4 desktop and Windows SliverLight developers selling proprietary binary SliverLight applications to the Linux user who, I should point out, MUST have MONO & MoonLight installed on their system.

Microsoft has a desktop advantage because they still own a nearly monopolistic control of the PC OEMs. The consumer has little choice but to buy a PC with Windows preinstalled IF they want to get a PC that has all the extras they want their PC to have. To get the hardware they want most Linux users buy a Windows PC and then dual boot or replace Windows, simply because DELL, HP and the others do NOT offer naked PCs with the same kind and number of peripherals as they offer for PCs preloaded with Windows. To make matters worse, the peripheral equipment makers do not support Linux by sharing with GPL developers the same data and specifications they give to Microsoft.

By making future Ubuntu GNOME desktop remixes dependent on MONO (and one must now add SliverLight, for that will surely come to pass as day follows night) Canonical is giving Microsoft a desktop advantage on Ubuntu, and in the process they are displacing a GPL tool which has been used to create some wonderful applications -- FireFox, VLC, Thunderbird, GIMP, and a host of others. GNOME and the GTK+ toolkit are under the GPL and are GNU projects. Novell and de Icaza control their development since they are the listed maintainers. Both GNOME and the GTK+ will have to be forked away from control by Novell and de Icaza if folks want to continue to see maintenance and development of apps that are currently built using them, or those apps the are yet to be built.

I fully expect in the future that Ubuntu ISOs will come with SliverLight proprietary "demoware" preinstalled, requiring the ejection of even more GPL software from the Ubuntu ISO. I also predict that even SilverLight versions of Microsoft's own proprietary applications, which might include Office and Media Center, may find room on an Ubuntu LiveDVD. I would even wager the sometime in the future attempts by Ubuntu users to replace SliverLight apps with GPL apps could either be prevented, or to cause the desktop to be disabled.

I also remember reading a Microsoft email which was released after the Combs VS Microsoft trial was concluded. In it, Bill Gates is writing to Steve Ballmer and others about how to compete with Linux in 3rd world countries. Their conclusion was, IIRC, to sell Windows at $3/copy and "later on we'll figure out a way to monetize our investment".

Moral: IF it ain't under the GPL it will be "monetized" sooner or later.

Side Note: Jane Silber's bio, in her own words

How did you join Canonical? I joined Canonical in July 2004. My original background is in software development, and then, later, project management. The company where I was a vice president at was bought out by General Dynamics Corp. I was a vice president at General Dynamics for two years, where I ran a small unit that developed information management decision-making software. It was mostly used at U.S. Army command posts or on U.S. naval ships. I oversaw about 150 people and about $45 million in revenue.

I was living in London and looking for a job when I happened to be at a party and met a friend of Mark Shuttleworth’s [the founder of Canonical]. I was familiar with Linux, but not using it in any way. But setting up a software company and growing it was right up my alley. I had lunch with Mark the following week and then started the next Monday. It was definitely a matter of being at the right place at the right time.

I wonder if she was in charge of developing the software which crashed the 4 NT servers on the USS Yorktown warship, causing it to lose navigation and defense weapons fire control? It had to be towed 200 miles back to port because they couldn't restart the NT servers.

Have you considered BSD-ish OSes?

Matthew Fuller wrote:

BSD is what you get when a bunch of Unix hackers sit down to try to port a Unix system to the PC. Linux is what you get when a bunch of PC hackers sit down and try to write a Unix system for the PC.

And that statement is made despite the USL Vs UCB lawsuit episode. BSD adherents claim that, "In short, BSD is designed, whereas Linux is grown", meaning that the BSD kernel and utilities are developed as an integrated whole, while Linux is composed of two independent components: the Linux kernel and the GNU utilities. The Linux kernel dev team use the utilities, mainly the gcc compiler & debugger, to write Linux and Linux uses the GNU libc library to communicate with the rest of the system above the kernel. That BSD claim isn't entirely true, however. The BSD, FreeBSD , OpenBSD and NetBSD have often waged war against each other, but in recent times they have begun sharing each other's code, in affect "growing" all of their distribution. They all advance at different rates, have differences in the code base, etc... In reality, their development environment differs little from that of Linux.

The other, AND VERY SIGNIFICANT, difference is their respective licenses. The GPL protects both the software AND the community of users. The BSD license allows anyone to freely expropriate the code for any purpose WITHOUT giving back any improvements or changes to the BSD community, so a cycle of improvements, which is so beneficial in the Linux community, cannot begin in the BSD community. So, for example, you have Microsoft using the BSD TCP/IP stack, adding improvements and modifications, but returning NOTHING back to the BSD community except a license fee if they want to use Windows, which contains their work. Do BSD coders do it for the glory? If so, then it would be hard for the average user to find and be awed by their work because one would have to know where, in the Windows subdirectories, to look to read the license listing their names, which the BSD license requires. Are the BSD coders altruistic? Then how does their license help the general community of computer users if proprietary software houses use BSD code to create closed source binaries which are sustained by lock-in tactics? It's like someone donating land to the public commons, plowing a part of it, planting seed, watering, and then looking the other way while some crook puts a fence around it and starts charging for the produce, and prohibiting the buyers from using part of the seeds to plant a crop in another field.

This defect in the BSD license is why proprietary houses love the license, and it is also the reason why the BSD has never grown in popularity the way Linux has. Most coders wanting to contribute to the public good know that the GPL is a better vehicle for doing that. They also know that their work will be amplified by others and return back to them much improved or expanded. So, everyone benefits and no one can be exploited because contributions to the GPL are voluntary.

This defect in the BSD license is also why I will not use a BSD operating system. I do not want my contributions, in any form I offer them, to be exploited to help a convicted monopolist to further their greed, exploitation or monopolistic position.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

....
Which Linux distros meet your criteria?
...

I'm staying with Kubuntu as long as it doesn't become dependent on MONO/MoonLight. IOW, If I can issue

sudo apt-get remove libmono-system1.0-cil libmono-system2.0-cil

and blow ALL of MONO and its dependencies off Kubuntu then I will stay with it.

The only caveat is that Kubuntu stay on the bleeding edge of KDE4 releases.

[Telengard]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

sudo apt-get remove libmono-system1.0-cil libmono-system2.0-cil

But then if I

sudo apt-get install firefox gimp vlc

Oops! I got mono!

Seriously GG, which distro do I run to when all I want is to get away from M$?

[sithlord48]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

I am still much happier to see her on the iMac instead of using Windows

yea my girl was given her first non windows experances w/ mac OS X , but she didn't like it much and now uses kubuntu (and finally w/ kde4)

[doctordruidphd]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

But then if I
Code:

sudo apt-get install firefox gimp vlc

Oops! I got mono! Cry

Hmm. I have all of those installed, and no mono. I guess, install them, and then:
sudo apt-get remove libmono* mono-runtime
and see what it threatens to remove.

[Telengard]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

Hmm. I have all of those installed, and no mono.

Probably because those apps don't yet have mono dependencies. With Gnome and Ubuntu both incorporating M$ APIs, how long will it be before all our favorite GTK apps do the same?

Or look at it from the devolper's perspective. Once GTK+ is obsoleted by mono and moonlight, GTK developers will have no choice but to adopt M$ APIs in order to maintain their apps. Letting Firefox, Gimp and VLC die is not an option!

[sithlord48]

Re: Moonlight on Linux

oh man i would hate to lose FF, the GIMP or VLC.... sounds like its time for at very least those 3 programs to be forked and ported to QT4. think about it using gimp w/ qt 4.6 multi touch