So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

[Loadus]

Re: So... is this thread going to be usable?

I took a month to test out different distros and I ended up using Kubuntu 6.06 LTS. The interface was intuitive, I found all the settings I needed and it worked out-of-the-box. I still had my XP installation in dual-boot, if I ever got too scared and had to run back to the bluegreen cradle of the M$oft. But Kubuntu 6.06 was my first real plunge to GNU/Linux OS.

Now, few years later, I saved some cash and got a new PC rig just for the 9.10 release. I installed the 9.04 from the original CD (you have to have one of those, 'tis beautiful!) and waited for the Koala to climb the tree. When I upgraded 9.04 --> 9.10, I lost all sound functionality, and I too had strange dialogs popping up all over the place telling me that "nnn module somewhere has crashed etc.". I whined about it on the forums for a while, read a lot of posts from similar issues and then just decided to install 9.10 clean from CD.

And it's been beautiful since then. I don't have a dualboot at all, only Kubuntu and I wouldn't have it any other way. It actually sucks to use Windows at work (writing this from xp). Only thing keeping me in Windows was Trackmania, which now runs very nicely through WINE (although there are some weird hangs when downloading/uploading).

I have nothing but praises for Kubuntu 9.10, it looks good, it's lightning fast, it's stable.

Interesting to note when people nag about some hardware not working in GNU/Linux enviroment: you have to do some research on what hardware is not supported in GNU/Linux - you shouldn't buy stuff for Windows either that doesn't have the "Certified to run on XP/Vista (or something)", only problem is that hardware doesn't yet have the sticker "Works on Open Source Software Platforms", you have to search it yourself.

I made a list of the hardware I wanted, then scraped off all the stuff that wasn't supported (usually because the manufacturer didn't release any info for the hardware). The only thing I got stuck with was my old trusty audiocard, which I intend to replace soon.

In the couple of years now that I've used GNU/Linux, everytime I've hit some snag (and it's nearly everytime from something that I did myself), I've remembered something that Linus said: "If you build an operating system for morons, then morons will use it."

So I search for the answer to the problem and fix it. Simple.

<--- before you question that by saying "yeah, but a good OS wouldn't have any problems on anything", go ahead, build an OS from ground up that works without any problems on at least 250 000 different hardware configurations including servers, laptops, desktops, workstations, scientific instruments, cash register systems, factory automation, movie production hardware (film editing systems, motion capture), audio production systems ... etc. lol.


Do you think they are running it without problems:

[img width=400 height=320]http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/060/6011/6011f1.png[/img]

[bailout]

Re: So... is this thread going to be usable?

Interesting to note when people nag about some hardware not working in GNU/Linux enviroment: you have to do some research on what hardware is not supported in GNU/Linux -

It is not that simple. I am having problems with my ATI graphics card with kubuntu 9.10 despite it running previous k/ubuntus ok. There have been changes in the drivers or possibly it is kwin but my card hasn't changed.

My laptop I bought a couple of years ago and chose it because it has Intel graphics which at the time were recommended as having reliable linux drivers. Both 9.04 and 9.10 are causing problems with intel chips because of changes in linux that the drivers haven't caught up with.

A few years ago I needed a usb wireless dongle and chose one with ralink chip because the drivers were open sourced and hence recommended. I used it for two years and the drivers were rubbish and never improved.

Even if you do chose carefully it is no guarantee that your kit will work with the next release.

[GreyGeek]

Re: So... is this thread going to be usable?

......
Even if you do chose carefully it is no guarantee that your kit will work with the next release.

Next release? I had trouble with VISTA that was pre-installed on this laptop!

My display kept getting disconnected, so I fixed the problem by replacing VISTA with Kunbuntu KK. No problems since then. Not a single crash, either.

[KeithZG]

Re: So... is this thread going to be usable?

My laptop I bought a couple of years ago and chose it because it has Intel graphics which at the time were recommended as having reliable linux drivers. Both 9.04 and 9.10 are causing problems with intel chips because of changes in linux that the drivers haven't caught up with.

Actually, to be fair, it wasn't that "linux" (I assume you mean the kernel and X.org by that) was changing that much; the vast majority of the problems were actually Intel trying to go over to a different method of rendering, and the performance impacts and bugs that went along with that. The other issue was Ubuntu's half-a-year release schedule, which happened to fall at a TERRIBLE time with 9.04. Myself, I just went over to using the xorg-edgers PPA which kept up with development, then switched to the main Ubuntu build of the drivers with Karmic Beta, and I happened to have no problems. That being said, this is all (on several laptops, actually) GMA950s...your fuel economy may vary.

A few years ago I needed a usb wireless dongle and chose one with ralink chip because the drivers were open sourced and hence recommended. I used it for two years and the drivers were rubbish and never improved.

Even if you do chose carefully it is no guarantee that your kit will work with the next release.

Actually, I have a number of wireless dongles with ralink chips; some of them have always worked perfectly, others have issues, but having tried them out on Windows as well, I'm going to tell you that the Linux experience is a significant improvement! Not perfect, no, but definitely Better Than Windows (tm).

[gregwalton]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

Well, I've read the few comments relating to my original post (thanks, guys) and all the other posts (hi, there). Based on some of the comments both here and elsewhere I've decided Kubuntu is no longer for me. To answer the original subject of the thread it sounds like Karmic, in itself, *is* usable and worth trying out. I wouldn't expect it to be perfect and I would expect to put in some time loading the apps I want and setting it up the way I like it. I don't even mind that I might have to travel back to the 1970s (metaphorically) and use the terminal to do so.

But Karmic doesn't stand on its own. In six months there will be another version and in 18(?) months Karmic will lose its support. What I've read here is that (K)ubuntu aims to be near the leading edge, putting innovation over stability. As such it is not the distro for me - I no longer have the time to be that much of a hobbyist. I'd like an OS I can use, something that gets close to "just working". I expect it to need some configuration and maintenance but I don't need something which turns into an on-going problem solving game. I have ordered Windows 7.

I may try Debian some time (if I can get up the initial learning curve) and I will probably try Karmic out of interest, though I probably won't go much farther than the out-of-box experience. I may as well: I have downloaded the alternate install iso from the torrent and seeded nearly 10 copies.

It seems a shame to me that (K)ubuntu, which was once the future hope for desktop Linux, has slid back into being a plaything for hobbyists when it so nearly became a realistic alternative to MS Vista. But, to my mind, desktop Linux in general and the Ubuntu family in particular have backed away from a great opportunity... to become usable.

[Qqmike]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

gregwalton, I haven't read this thread, only your last post, but you might consider a test run of sidux (read the forum notice there and pick a recent version that seems solid).
http://sidux.com/
sidux seems to "just work" (after initial bugs have been hammered out), and they are real intense over there when it comes to fixing things asap; good forum support; no nonsense, and thus they may make you feel like an idiot now and then .
I've been using Kubuntu 8.04.3 for some time now, works perfectly, but you do have the longer-term support issues you mentioned (it is pretty much ready-to-go, looks and acts like XP desktop, but quick and snappy and stable; standard KDE apps work without a hitch).

[gregwalton]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

Qqmike, thanks for the pointer to sidux. Having read a bit about it just now there are some good signs - I like the rolling release idea. Contrary to what some people may expect from what I've said earlier in this thread I'm not averse to going into terminal to update - you pretty much have to do that with Kubuntu if you want it to update reliably.

I originally went for Ubuntu for its popularity, which I thought would guarantee on-going support (as it has). I then went for Kubuntu because I liked the appearance and customisability of KDE. I thought the move from Ubuntu to Kubuntu would be quite minor. It seems, though, that changes like KDE 4 coming out have made Kubuntu quite a different animal from Ubuntu: more "intrepid" and "bleeding edge". Perhaps if I went back to Ubuntu I would be dealing with a more stable animal?

[Qqmike]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

I think you are safe with sidux, and whatever you need to know, there's a 98% chance that their extremely well-written official on-line Manual covers it in more detail than you'd ever care to read. I don't know about Ubuntu, except to say lots of folks--tons--make that choice, so something good is happening over there. I like the look-and-feel of Kubuntu. The new KDE4 takes some getting used to, for sure, and as yet the immediate benefit is not real clear (unless you are into the fancy graphic effects). Apart from such Sara Palen superficialities, I'm more concerned about how Kubuntu takes one step forward and two steps back in the regression of certain features that are important to me. Actually, I'm using too many big words: plain and simple, I want Konqueror to do its job; I want my file manager to recognize not only USBs but all my partitions and to tell me so in plain Linux notation (that would be sda1, sdb4, etc.); Adept was working great for me in the past; as were the standard KDE apps; and such things, basic things, nail them down and keep them nailed down as new-and-better features including sexy effects are added on. Folks like Dolphin, and there are some cool things about it. But I'll be go to h* if I'm going to run GParted to build Labels for dozens of partitions and then to maintain such on several HDDs on two machines. That's why I'm recommending--for now--either sidux or Kubuntu 8.04.3. Nothing wrong with Kubuntu 9.10--folks are raving about it; it's a good idea to play with it in spare time and try to get used to it as the future progresses (we hope not regresses, huh? ), but it does seem to have ruffled more than a few feathers among users (combined with the premature, undocumented, last-minute release of GRUB2, which may also cloud the picture for some dual-booting users).

[gregwalton]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

Regression is the word I was looking for - that's what has been a problem to me in using Kubuntu. KDE4 is great, but was introduced too early; grub2 seems to have come in before it is clearly understood; ext4 has been used before it seems safe enough; Adept seemed finally to be working but now its development seems to have died. All backward steps in stability and reliability from an OS which used to work very well.

I am heartened to see the posts about Project Timelord. This seems to recognise that Kubuntu has neither accurately followed Ubuntu nor distinguished itself from Ubuntu. I don't mind what Kubuntu is, I would just like to know before spending my precious spare time on it.

Good luck to Kubuntu and all who sail in her.

[bailout]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

Perhaps if I went back to Ubuntu I would be dealing with a more stable animal?

Gnome seems to have stability as a much higher priority than kde tbh. From what you have written I would have thought that ubuntu is the closest to what you are looking for.

[pansz]

Re: So... is this thread going to be usable?

Now, few years later, I saved some cash and got a new PC rig just for the 9.10 release. I installed the 9.04 from the original CD (you have to have one of those, 'tis beautiful!) and waited for the Koala to climb the tree. When I upgraded 9.04 --> 9.10, I lost all sound functionality, and I too had strange dialogs popping up all over the place telling me that "nnn module somewhere has crashed etc.". I whined about it on the forums for a while, read a lot of posts from similar issues and then just decided to install 9.10 clean from CD.

Intetresting, my experience is that the upgrade is less prone to fail than the fresh install.

Do everyone use the command "sudo do-release-upgrade" to do the upgrade? As far as I know this is the only way which will guarantee a successful release-upgrade.

[GreyGeek]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

.......
It seems a shame to me that (K)ubuntu, which was once the future hope for desktop Linux, has slid back into being a plaything for hobbyists when it so nearly became a realistic alternative to MS Vista. But, to my mind, desktop Linux in general and the Ubuntu family in particular have backed away from a great opportunity... to become usable.

Greg,
That statement seems to be political, not realistic or practical.

Political because you make unsupported and unjustified claims ("once future hope", "slid back into being ... hobbyists", "nearly became a realistic..."...).

Not realistic because your brush is too broad and, it seems to me, deliberately so. MILLIONS of users from my 78 year old friend to SOHOs, to mid and fortune 500 businesses, to banks, Hollywood... ALL find Linux useful for a wide variety of reasons. The kinds, numbers and ranges of Linux's uses are too many to do justice in this small space. Linux is useful IF for no other reason that to do online banking and shopping securely and not have your personal info stolen, along with the contents of your bank account. The London Stock Exchange found that losing over $1 BILLION US was enough of a reason to switch from a .NET "solution" that MICROSOFT wrote for them to a Linux solution that had been available for years and was over FOUR TIMES faster than the .NET "solution". Microsoft couldn't put Windows performance where their mouth was.

Not practical because YOU think that the limits of YOUR experience is the limits that everyone else experiences too. Such is not the case. And, while you seem to believe that Ubuntu's difficulties with Intel video drivers means that Ubuntu is "backing away from a great opportunity" you DO NOT seem to believe that VISTA meant that Microsoft was "backing away". Why the double standard? Your statement is especially meaningless, if not a deliberately distortion, when one realises that Microsoft forced the FULL cooperation of OEMs and peripheral makers to creates its video and peripheral device drivers, even to the point of forcing some NOT to support Linux, while Linux developers have to work with shoddy beginnings or even reverse engineer devices in order to make Linux drivers. This tilted playing field doesn't seem to factor in your equation.

While Windows cannot do everything people want to do, I've never read any knowledgeable person on this forum claiming that Linux can do everything that people want to do either. There are some problems for which no practical software solution exists in Linux. That's why I had to use Windows XP in order to use the only tool I could find which could write a fly-by-wire control system for a new kind of ag tractor. That is, until I discovered that the tool from Parker, called IQAN, would run under CodeWeaver's CrossOver Office. I was Windows free from Jan 1, 2000 until March 2005. That tool required I keep a Windows installation running .... until CrossOver. Now I am Windows free again. I can't guarantee that I can stay Windows free, but no one can guarantee that a Windows user can stay Linux free, either. There are many world class programs that are available ONLY on Linux.

I hear that Win7 is merely XP on steroids and with fresh lipstick, but that it is just a vulnerable as XP is to infection. Allow me to suggest that you use a wireless router like Linksys WRT54GL, which uses Linux and has a Linux firewall built in. Browse with FireFox, which is not the worlds most widely used browser, and do all your email with Google so you won't import an infection.

So, enjoy your return to Windows. Watch your bank account and credit cards closely, and keep your wallet open.
Good luck.

[KeithZG]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

If you're looking for stability, and you liked KDE 3.5, why not just use that? You can install it alongside KDE 4, or as the sole desktop environment right from the disk. http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/ I've been toggling between KDE4 and KDE3.5 for ages now. Yeah, it isn't cutting edge, but cutting edge is what's scaring you off, right? KDE 3.5 still works fine. Plus you can run KDE 4 apps in the KDE 3.5 environment, so in the cases where there have been drastic modern improvements you can take advantage of those without changing your entire desktop environment. Personally I've mostly gone over to 4.3 now, but everyone's experiences and preferences are different.

Edit: Should point you towards the Wiki entry, which has much more information: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Kde3/Karmic

Also, lately I've been noticing that WINE has been doing a better job of letting me reliably run old games (and I don't mean terribly old, I mean like circa 2001 and so) than Vista or 7. Which, for me, speaks to the stability of Microsoft's OSes! Or, that is to say, the lack thereof. And it's kindof absurd.

[gregwalton]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

Grey Geek

Thanks for the reply. I do feel you've read more into what I wrote than I had intended. I have been trying to say that from the excitement that was created a few years ago when Ubuntu and its variants were first widely recognised as a possible alternative to Windows things seem *to me* to have gone backwards. I have also been trying to say that I think the Ubuntu family (or some of its members) missed an opportunity to capitalise on the early failure of Vista with a stable, easy-to-use, nice-to-look-at Linux. Just my impressions as someone who has used Linux, has been interested in its progress and has noticed the non-tech people around having lost those first glimmerings of interest they had a few years back - despite all the Linux netbooks that came out.

I would like to point out that I am fully aware of the success of server Linux and embedded Linux - I was talking about desktop OSes. I am also aware that Microsoft have played dirty. Unlike you, though, I am also aware that they got Vista working and Win7 is actually very good (and not XP with lipstick). I also manage to run Windows without virus infections etc. (I do use Firefox, and webmail and have a router).

KeithZG

Good point, maybe KDE 3.5 would be worth a try - for some reason (probably just the dismal colour) I never got on with Ubuntu's Gnome. But the point was not that KDE should never adavance just that Kubuntu tried to move over KDE 4 too soon for comfort. 4.3 seems to be fine - especially now K3b works.

The point was that this history of Kubuntu apparently prefering to try out new toys over providing stability does not suit me and probably won't suit anyone who, for whatever reasons, has not the time, skill or desire to make a hobby out of their operating system. Although I originally asked if Kubuntu 9.10 was going to be usable the replies I have had to this thread have made me realise that the whole long-term atitude of the Kubuntu developers and community is not mine: I would be a bit more risk-averse. So Kubuntu is still great, just not for me.

[GreyGeek]

Re: So... is Karmic Koala going to be usable?

I apologise if I have misconstrued your intent.

...
I also manage to run Windows without virus infections etc.
...

A lot of people think they can and a lot of people think they do.

However, as long as Microsoft keeps secret the security holes in YOUR Windows installation until such time as they deem it necessary to release the announcement of a hole, and the patch on the same day, NO Windows user can be sure that they are safe, or that their box isn't a zombie in some Windows bot farm. Microsoft has sat on some holes for months, and in the case of IE6, for years. Sometimes they NEVER patch a hole and recommend the user "upgrade" to a newer version, which is terrific for their bottom line, but not the user's.

While this is especially true for Joe and Sally Sixpack, it has become patently clear that even corporations, with their cadres of MSCE's administering the Windows desktops and servers connected to the Internet, are having a difficult time keeping them secure. Before I retired I programmed for the Dept of Revenue in the state where I reside. A year before I retired the new Governor. who campaigned on improving efficiencies and cutting costs, abandon the Dept's move from NetWare to Linux servers and forced the entire state to "standardise" on Microsoft software. He dictated that all department servers be moved to the State CTO office and placed under their control He's replaced an atmosphere of sharing and cooperation with one of territorial stakeouts (for job preservation) and snitching (which amount to mainly false accusations for poltical advantage). An amazing turn of events considering that the previous Tax Commissioner, who saw State tax revenues fall $700M under her watch, rallied the employees and lead by example, even doing work on the mail processing lines. The new, "more efficient" governor replaced one Tax Commissioner with two, and forced the abandonment of 10,000 LotusNotes licenses, to be replaced with Microsoft Exchange licenses, so that all 13,000 state workers would be using the same software. That decree also forced us to abandon nearly 200 integrated LN databases that could not be easily migrated to Exchange/SharePoint because they were too complex and relationally joined for Microsoft's tools to handle. Those tools which could do part of the job licensed out at $5K/copy. With tight budgets restricting purchases most of the migration, where possible, was done manually. But, efficiencies have dropped to 1/4th their previous level. Where previous directory browsing on NetWare or Linux servers were nearly instantaneous, browsing a directory under the control of "Active Directory" becomes painfully slow, even if you've browsed it an hour before. And, now in the fact of a $200 Million tax shortfall, his solution is to furlough or layoff workers, something the previous tax commissioner didn't consider when her problem was almost 3X bigger.

Now, to make matters worse, I read in yesterday's evening edition of our local newspaper that the Dept of Roads Windows network (the one with personnel information on it) was hacked into on Sept 6th, and they just found out about it last weekend. OVER TWO MONTHS that computer network was browsed at will by bad guys. How many Roads employees had their personal info stolen? All of them. The State CTO controls those servers. Obviously it takes more than a diploma from Westpoint, oir a Law degree, or $2,000 suits and $100 haircuts to make a computer network safe, but even with the best IT training and experience if you don't know where the land mines are hidden and Microsoft won't tell you, sooner or later you WILL step on one and it will blow you up. Oh, what wasn't mentioned in that news story was the possibility that information on that server might lead to compromises in other servers under the control of the State CTO. Tax information for 1,700,000 state citizens may have already been compromised.

While NO software, including Linux, is 100% safe, Linux has been designed from the ground up to be a secure networking OS. Since the source code is GPL it is open to all for examination and these examinations have revealed holes. The source for proprietary applications is not available to the public for vetting, like FOSS is, so holes are usually found by user reports to AV software companies whose vaccines didn't stop infections that crippled the users Windows installations. Here is where the Linux paradigm differs significantly from Microsoft's -- holes in the Linux kernel or FOSS applications are not kept secret. They are publicly announced, along with proof code which can be used to test subsequent patches. Patches are usually created within hours of the announcement if not at the same time, and the patched software usually appears in the repositories or on download sites very soon thereafter. Linux users aren't treated like mushrooms. So, when I hear about a hole in a FOSS application I use, I, ME, not some unethical corporation, can decide IF I want to continue using that software or refrain from using it until I install the patch. In other words, I can keep my system as safe as humanly possible.

Considering the financial and personal risks, it amazes me that folks continue to choose an OS (including win7) that continues to hang their financial future outdoors on the clothes line, along with their other personal laundry, and even their reputation. I am reminded of the substitute teacher who had her reputation, teaching certificate and finances destroyed because she couldn't stop a classroom computer running Windows from continuing to pop up porn pages on the display. Some JR Hi boys were using the display and from their giggles attracted her attention. She went over to the computer and clicked the "X" on the browser but instead of closing down it popped up more porn pictures. The more she clicked the more pics appeared. Of course, the boys said they weren't browsing porn. She was no computer expert. Neither was the detective who took a one week course in using a Windows "forensic" tool and leaped to all sorts of wild conclusions about his "discoveries" on that PC. The Judge refused to allow a REAL computer forensic expert to testify, and even though folks at Microsoft KNEW about the problem they continued to let her fry in the juices they cooked up with their security paradigm. On appeal she negotiated her way out of prison sentence by giving up her teaching certificate because she could no longer afford to fight the battle. I do not remember if they tacked the "pervert" label on her or not, but things couldn't be any worse for her right now.