The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

[Rog131]

A thread from the > kubuntu-devel -- Kubuntu Developer Discussion >> Project Timelord -- Initial consideration:

Jonathan Thomas
Tue Oct 20 21:21:09 BST 2009

Hello fellow Kubuntu developers,

Kubuntu, as we know, is a fairly good KDE distribution. (Otherwise we would
not be here reading this mailing list) However, things are not perfect. In
fact, things could be much better.

"But what is Project Timelord?", you may ask, "and how does it relate to
Kubuntu's problems?" Both are good questions. Project Timelord is...

>> Introducing Project Timelord



Future links from the Kubuntu Forums:

> Topic: Longer release times for better quality?
> Topic: Just read an interesting blog about Kubuntu.
> Topic: Kubuntu "in a downward spiral" acording to DistroWatch
> Topic: Nice KDE/Firefox integration on openSUSE
> Topic: Lucid Lynx 10.04

[kubicle]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

That was a nice read, thanks Rog.

The plan includes stuff that I whole-heartedly support, like:
1. Using the excellent upstream translations and translation tools instead of Launchpad/Rosetta.
2. Dropping the tools simply ported from gnome/python, and either improve upstream tools or rewrite them in C++ (these changes are much more likely to get included upstream)

and things I'm indifferent about, but have often seen requested by others, like
3. Branding
4. Marketing

There's also nothing in the plan that I would outright object to.

[Rog131]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

... and in the follow-ups:

Replacing some of the the KDE/Qt applications with the Gnome/GTK applications (KPackageKit, wifi..) What it would mean ( one CD limit) - what would be dropped...

...KPackageKit doesn't really look like it'll be "ready" any time soon.
Including GNOME stuff of any form will decrease the amount of language packs
we can store on the default Live CD, but perhaps it is worth it since language
packs can be easily downloaded...

[Telengard]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

It is great to see some movement toward improvement here. I'm especially eager to see packaging flaws and application integration addressed.

[dibl]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

That is most interesting -- thanks Rog!

I hope the Canonical folks leading this charge will bear in mind the one real distinguishing "value proposition" of Kubuntu, as compared to other KDE distributions, which is its overt mission to appeal to new Linux adopters. Others, like sidux, have done a marvelous technical job of putting out a KDE distribution, but there's no mission to help new adopters -- that's what *buntu offers to the world. And I think that mission needs to stay on top of the priority list, as the packaging decisions are being worked out.

[GreyGeek]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

Thanks for the update, Rog, it was a real eye-opener!

Here is a nice explanation of the Launchpad Translations project (also known as Rosetta) problem, for those who are interested. Read carefully the section marked "Communication". It is an example of feelings of developers that led to the "Timelord Announcement".

But, this piece of information was unexpected:

Rosetta still not ... open source

We've got to eat our own dog food.


"Marketing" and "Promotion" appear to be departments of the Department of Redundancy Department which, for Ubuntu, appears to be the focus of some of Shuttleworth's money. Donations on FOSS projects rarely rise above the 3% of users level, if that high. That's why quality and "It just works" have to be Job #1.


Perhaps you could clarify something:

Kubuntu introduces several Kubuntu-specific tools that work to bring a more usable desktop experience to the user. .... dialogs launched from the GNOME settings menu .... memory-hungry python applications

Which tools are they?

To recruit a new translations team, we will announce the indefinite postponement of the use of Launchpad and translate Kubuntu applications in their bzr repositories, generating PO templates for translators to use with their favorite translation applications.

It seems to me that this approach would lead to an equally confusing, difficult to manage environment. Isn't "lokalize" the replacement for the discontinued KBable? (I know there is EMACS and such, but ....)

BTW, an interesting website for the status of stable KDE4 languages.

Working more with upstream translators instead of redoing translations seems to be one area for which Kubuntu devs/translators would save the most time and maximize their talent.

IMO, one of the best goals is:

We will also try to depreciate Kubuntu-specific applications that duplicate functionality implemented in upstream applications we can use, lessening the number of applications we have to maintain ourselves.

and the closer Kubuntu can get to a pure KDE4 desktop composed only on applications written with Qt, as apposed to GTK, Python or MONO, etc..., the better and easier development, maintenance and support will be. So, modifying the Ubuntu framework (or what ever it is) into which KDE4 applications are plugged in would, IMO, be better than continually reworking the same application to fit into each release of Kubuntu. Does Kubuntu have to be based off of Ubuntu? Especially since the Ubuntu Technical Board decreed, on June 29, 2009, that future remixes of the Ubuntu desktop will be dependent on MONO! If that happens, and it seems like it will, how much more difficulty will that add to making Kubuntu out of Ubuntu?

[kubicle]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

Kubuntu introduces several Kubuntu-specific tools that work to bring a more usable desktop experience to the user. .... dialogs launched from the GNOME settings menu .... memory-hungry python applications

Which tools are they?

tools like apport-kde, apturl-kde, backintime-kde, gdebi-kde, jockey-kde, software-properties-kde, system-config-printer-kde, update-manager-kde, update-notifier-kde, usb-creator-kde (not meant to be an exclusive list)

Especially since the Ubuntu Technical Board decreed, on June 29, 2009, that future remixes of the Ubuntu desktop will be dependent on MONO!

I doubt one will have to worry about kubuntu/kde becoming dependent on mono anytime soon...there usually exists (better) kde alternatives for mono software (gnome-do, banshee, f-spot, tomboy --> krunner, amarok, digikam, basket), and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.

[claydoh]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

I was wondering how long it would take for this to make it out into the open

The purpose of this email is to generate discussion to determine whether the
Kubuntu developer community wishes to adopt this plan or not, as well as to
provide input on the brainstormed solutions. Until it is decided, we would
politely ask you to not announce the existence of the project to the general
public. We would like to hear your thoughts on the initiative here, though.

Ubuntu Technical Board decreed, on June 29, 2009, that future remixes of the Ubuntu desktop will be dependent on MONO! If that happens, and it seems like it will, how much more difficulty will that add to making Kubuntu out of Ubuntu?

Huh?? do you mean this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/000584.html ? Kubuntu is not a remix, btw

[Ole Juul]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

What is the local usage of the word remix? I've done an internet search and none of very many definitions in current usage would seem to apply to Kubuntu.

[Rog131]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

What is the local usage of the word remix?

> Remix wiki:

A remix is an alternative version of a song, different from the original version. This name is also used for any alterations of medias other than a song (film, literature etc.).

and with the Kubuntu: > Kubuntu 8.04 - Hardy Heron In Double Vision, > Kubuntu Kde3 Jaunty, > Kubuntu Kde3 Karmic, ...



... and Jonathan Riddell > [kubuntu-devel] Project Timelord -- Initial consideration

[GreyGeek]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

.....

Ubuntu Technical Board decreed, on June 29, 2009, that future remixes of the Ubuntu desktop will be dependent on MONO! If that happens, and it seems like it will, how much more difficulty will that add to making Kubuntu out of Ubuntu?

Huh?? do you mean this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/000584.html ? Kubuntu is not a remix, btw

Yup, that's the quote.

I am VERY glad to hear that Kubuntu isn't a remix of Ubuntu, which also means that it doesn't have to be based off of Ubuntu, either, should Ubuntu become dependent on MONO such that if MONO is purged the Ubuntu desktop will not run.

[MoonRise]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

As everyone else...Thanks Rog! Great info.

[gletscher]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

Why doesn't Kubuntu use the tools from the Pardus Distribution ? For Networking, Setup, Administration etc... The Pardus Desktop tools are the best I've seen around so far, highly polished, easy to use and stable.

In an opensource world, why do the work twice?

[dibl]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

In an opensource world, why do the work twice?

Hah!

What opensource world do you inhabit? Answer me this -- about how many text editors do they have in your opensource world? And if you get them all counted, then tell me how many music players they have there?

[Rog131]

Re: The Kubuntu Future - Project Timelord

Why doesn't Kubuntu use the tools from the Pardus Distribution ?

Looking Pardus > Pardus wiki

...
PiSi package management

PiSi (Packages Installed Successfully as Intended, /ˈpiːsiː/) is the package management system of Pardus. It is the primary tool for installing, upgrading and removing software packages.
...

Will those applications work with the 'buntus ? Without testing and modifications ?

The Ubuntu (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, ...) is a Debian derived distribution > Debian and Ubuntu. The most of (original) packaging is done by the Debian.

There are not enough manpower (> Kubuntu Wiki - Getting Involved) to maintain own versions of the applications...

Synaptic (Jaunty) is telling 27022 packages listed.