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**muzicman0** · Jul 29, 2009, 05:56 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

ISO's are provided as a benefit. If someone has a problem with it, they can go the same route that most users go to get windows. Buy it already made on a CD. or if they are willing to wait, get it from shipit. Ubuntu 9.04 is going on ebay right now for $3.99.

The problem with bundling software is that the user still has to know how to install it, and use it. There are plenty of free options out there for windows software to burn ISO's.

**dibl** · Jul 29, 2009, 06:44 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Originally posted by Troberg

"I don't have to do this with Windows!", to the point of not listening to reason.

Right there is the problem.

In my experience with people and Linux, you can kind of break it into two groups -- those who think they know something about computers (all Windows-based, of course), and those who don't. For those who don't, they don't care what the OS is, they just want to browse the 'net, send their e-mails, play their music, or whatever. So they'll usually accept your direction on what to do to use the system for their limited purposes, and life goes happily on.

It's the ones who think they know something that present the challenges. There's an old saying "It's not what you don't know, it's what you think you know that's wrong ...".

About all you can do is set the expectations, by gently advising them that all of their proud knowledge acquired during their experience with Windows is worse than useless -- it is downright dangerous. Tell them they may know a bit about PC hardware, and that's great, but they know nothing about this other OS, and it is not like Windows. Then, if the learning curve presented by Linux turns out to be too steep for their disposition and comfort level, you've got a person who needs to stay in the 90% -- that's the bottom line, and there's no reason to be bashful about saying it.

**Troberg** · Jul 29, 2009, 08:22 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

ISO's are provided as a benefit. If someone has a problem with it, they can go the same route that most users go to get windows. Buy it already made on a CD. or if they are willing to wait, get it from shipit. Ubuntu 9.04 is going on ebay right now for $3.99.

Sorry, but that argument does not really fly. The idea is to make it simple for users, including newbies. Downloading an ISO is the usual way of doing it, why not make it simple enough for them to do it? Why put unnecessary hurdles in their way?

I believe that users, even newbies, is a good thing, and that they should be encouraged to join us. To stop them with such an unnessesary obstacle in the very first step of the installation is to scare them away.

If there is one thing I've learned during my career, it's that you can't make software that assumes that the user reads documentation or has any deeper knowledge of technical matters (unless it's technical software, of course). Time spent making it easier is time well spent.

As I mentioned, I've lost a bunch of prospective users to this problem. A few, I've managed to win back when I was able to help them on-site, but some where so turned off by the experience that they gave up. This first obstacle is like putting a slum facade on a luxury building, it turns people away from a good product for the wrong reasons.

The problem with bundling software is that the user still has to know how to install it, and use it.

Not really, it can be a self-sufficient program, just an exe with no need to install external dependencies, or one that simply finds required libraries in the same directory as it is run from. No install needed.

I wouldn't be surprised if it could be built using an installer building package which calls a DLL for CD burning and ISO checking (this is assuming Windows, as that's where I consider the big problem to be), giving a nice, wizard based user experience.

**Snowhog** · Jul 29, 2009, 11:24 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Wrong, wrong, wrong -- IMO.

People who "just want it to work" but aren't willing to "take the time" to "learn what it takes" to make it work, are, simply put, lazy. They want(expect) everything, and don't want to do anything for it. I say, let those folks founder in the Land of Windoze, where Daddy Gates will happily feed them the pablum that Redmond has been dishing out for years.

Any thing worth learning takes effort.

**arochester** · Jul 29, 2009, 12:56 PM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

I don't count myself as a Techie, I'm more of a Point and Click guy.

There are a lot of guides to burning an ISO, but I normally point people at "BurningIsoHowto" on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto That is not complicated. That is simple and I can't imagine how the process might be further simplified...

**Telengard** · Jul 29, 2009, 01:25 PM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Originally posted by Troberg

For a technical user like me, who has been downloading ISO's since they first appeared, it's simple, but newbies mess up by burning a CD with the ISO file on it, by not having the apropriate software for burning images (relying on the OS CD burning software) or by simply getting lost in the handling.

In my opinion that is a sufficient barrier to entry for keeping out users with no chance of having a good Linux experience. Seriously, if they aren't willing to learn enough to overcome that small obstacle on their own, then I don't want to read their useless, uninformed complaints in the forums. Anyone who isn't willing to do that much research before hand should not be trying to install an OS of any kind.

But it seems like my opinion on this is not compatible with the philosophy of (K)ubuntu, which aims to make Linux available to the unwashed masses regardless of their level of technical expertise. With that in mind, I think you have a perfectly good argument and I'm willing to admit you are right. To the extent that (K)ubuntu tries to reach out to those inexperienced with Linux, we should do whatever we can to show them compassion and respect their needs.

I suggest that anyone having difficulty burning the ISO should be directed to read the BurningIsoHowto - Community Ubuntu Documentation article. The article describes step-by-step how to create the Ubuntu install CD from the downloaded ISO file. If the article seems deficient in some way, please help by contributing to it or else write your own Howto.

**muzicman0** · Jul 29, 2009, 06:39 PM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Originally posted by Troberg

ISO's are provided as a benefit. If someone has a problem with it, they can go the same route that most users go to get windows. Buy it already made on a CD. or if they are willing to wait, get it from shipit. Ubuntu 9.04 is going on ebay right now for $3.99.

Sorry, but that argument does not really fly. The idea is to make it simple for users, including newbies. Downloading an ISO is the usual way of doing it, why not make it simple enough for them to do it? Why put unnecessary hurdles in their way?

I believe that users, even newbies, is a good thing, and that they should be encouraged to join us. To stop them with such an unnessesary obstacle in the very first step of the installation is to scare them away.

That argument may not fly with you, but it is the simple truth. There are many options to get an install CD. Take your pick. The fastest (burning ISO's) may not be the easiest (although, come on...it's not hard...I have ISO burning software installed that I simply right click on the ISO file and choose burn...)...but if that doesn't work, then go with another option. buy it. order it for free on shipit. whatever. If a user lets this turn them off, then how are they ever going to install the nvidia driver, or get their wireless working (not that these things are hard, but you might actually have to read).

mm0

**Troberg** · Jul 30, 2009, 01:50 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

In my opinion that is a sufficient barrier to entry for keeping out users with no chance of having a good Linux experience. Seriously, if they aren't willing to learn enough to overcome that small obstacle on their own, then I don't want to read their useless, uninformed complaints in the forums. Anyone who isn't willing to do that much research before hand should not be trying to install an OS of any kind.

(This response is not specifically directed to the quote above, I just used it as an example of something echoed by several other posts)

Actually, once you get Kubuntu installed, for the non-technical user with non-technical needs, it just works. There's not much they need to learn, and, in my experience, it works smoothly for them.

I find the attitude "If they can't make it work, we don't want them" elitist and damaging to the open source movement. I'm old enough to remember the same arguments when GUI's arrived, and it didn't work then either. One needs to go out and greet the user, and invite him in with a minimum of commitment. Yes, it will bring in some bad users, but it will also bring in lots of good users, users that will in the long run be the future of the product.

It reminds me about a restaurant I sometimes went to, which always had a closed sign on the door, but let you in if you knocked and they thought you were proper enough (if not, they didn't even open the door). By making the guest jump through hoops like that, they had very few customers and eventually closed down. Sure, it was a nice restaurant with excellent food, but there were too few guests because of their unwelcoming first impression.

There are a lot of guides to burning an ISO, but I normally point people at "BurningIsoHowto" on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto That is not complicated. That is simple and I can't imagine how the process might be further simplified...

It could be simplified by packaging the instructions in the form of runnable code in a setup program. Remember, people from the Windows world are used to "download, run setup, complete wizard, done". They get frustrated when they just get a file which they can't doubleclick. The entire experience starts off on the wrong foot.

**Telengard** · Jul 30, 2009, 02:10 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Originally posted by Troberg

I find the attitude "If they can't make it work, we don't want them" elitist and damaging to the open source movement.

It looks like you may not have read the rest of my post. If you think I'm being elitist then you are wrong. It is just unreasonable for you to expect the members of this forum to help people who aren't willing to do anything for themselves.

Originally posted by Troberg

It could be simplified by packaging the instructions in the form of runnable code in a setup program. Remember, people from the Windows world are used to "download, run setup, complete wizard, done". They get frustrated when they just get a file which they can't doubleclick. The entire experience starts off on the wrong foot.

So you want a program which will:

Present the list of current Kubuntu ISOs
Download the selected ISO
Verify the ISO against the official MD5 hash
Create the Kubuntu install disc from the ISO
Verify the burned disc
Instruct the user to reboot with the disc in the drive

Sounds like a fine idea. Which OS should the program run on? Which computer models should the program provide CD booting instructions for (since every BIOS is different)? Who is going to write the program, and how will it be distributed?

**DeathKitten** · Jul 30, 2009, 03:27 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

Originally posted by Telengard

So you want a program which will:

Present the list of current Kubuntu ISOs
Download the selected ISO
Verify the ISO against the official MD5 hash
Create the Kubuntu install disc from the ISO
Verify the burned disc
Instruct the user to reboot with the disc in the drive

Sounds like a fine idea. Which OS should the program run on? Which computer models should the program provide CD booting instructions for (since every BIOS is different)? Who is going to write the program, and how will it be distributed?

Honestly speaking, there would only really be a need for the program on Windows. Apple makes burning ISOs so easy that when I tried to do it, I looked and searched and hunted for the options to only find out that Apple's software automagically burns the ISO as an image like it's supposed to, thus killing the number one newb mistake. (I sure felt like a moron when I finally Googled to find out why I couldn't find the option to burn as image on my mom's boyfriend's computer.) Under Linux, we're hoping that if the user has stuck around long enough to actually have need for more install discs, they'll know enough to open K3B and burn as image. Thus we only have to worry about the green horn Windows users.

The booting information likely won't be as big of an issue as one might think, store bought Windows machines are typically set up to boot from CD for install and recovery purposes, so the really green users won't need to be told how to set it up. If the machine is home built, most likely the person who built it is the one wishing to do the Linux install, and if they know enough to build a machine, they should know how to correct the BIOS if they're not already set up to boot from CD. This will leave a very very small group of users who may have had a family member or friend build their machine for them... and if the person who sets this us is really worried about this small group of users, he can include a link to a wiki entry or online tutorial with a list of the steps needed for the currently popular BIOS types.

I can't tell you who will develop the program, I certainly don't know anyone who has time to work on it. That said, if the idea is put up somewhere with enough traffic, or somewhere close enough to the core of a project (like say the *buntu launchpad site as a feature request?), then maybe someone with the know how and the time could toss something together? Better yet, I don't suppose our person who started this thread knows how to program in something that'll run on Windows?

Distribution would probably start on a little website somewhere, but if the idea takes off and is well received, it could be picked up by distributions like *buntu and offered on the main ISO download page.

All that said, I am not sure about this idea, and was mostly playing devil's advocate. While those who are saying "if they can't be bothered to learn how to burn an ISO, they are probably not users we want" may be over reacting a little bit, I do feel it's safe to say that if they can't be bothered to learn how to burn an ISO, perhaps they're not ready to be doing their own install. Users at that level should either be pointed at a solution like buying a *buntu machine from Dell or System 76, or you should be actually doing the first install for them. At the very least, burn the CD for them and save them the trouble.

**arochester** · Jul 30, 2009, 03:50 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

I agree with much that Death Kitten says.

if the idea is put up somewhere with enough traffic, or somewhere close enough to the core of a project (like say the *buntu launchpad site as a feature request?)

...or Ubuntu Brainstorm at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/

At the very least, burn the CD for them and save them the trouble.

I have posted several Linux disks to from the UK to India. Once you have downloaded the iso isn't it a bit of a waste to, knowingly, have other people download it again?

I've been looking at SUSE Studio (http://susestudio.com/) a website which allows you to "Build an appliance — or your own custom Linux distro — with a few mouse clicks"...but it's complex, not simple.

**kevinc** · Jul 30, 2009, 06:06 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

I agree with musicman0's first response. If anyone who has a problem buring a CD from an ISO wants to try Kubuntu you can't beat a free CD from shipit. M$ are not offering, AFAIK, free CD's of Windows 7 to anyone, except with a built in self destruct date, or pay $$ to M$.

Also for those who can afford $3.99 on E-bay, it will avoid the difficulties of burning an ISO file onto a CD.

I can't see how either of these options are going to cause problems for someone, even a Windows user with no technical knowledge.

I know a number of people who use Windows XP and Vista - most of them have no idea what a service pack is or what their computer runs and when they try to install a new program or update their anti-virus or firewall and it tells them they need XP sp3 or Vista sp1, they have no idea what the problem is.

Burning a CD from an ISO is not too difficult if anyone takes a few seconds to read the instructions first and then to follow them. If anyone can make the process easier, it will be helpful to many.

**Troberg** · Jul 30, 2009, 08:40 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

So you want a program which will:
Present the list of current Kubuntu ISOs
Download the selected ISO
Verify the ISO against the official MD5 hash
Create the Kubuntu install disc from the ISO
Verify the burned disc
Instruct the user to reboot with the disc in the drive

I don't think that's needed. This should be sufficient:

* Verify the ISO
* Burn the ISO
* Verify the disk
* Display a short readme on how to proceed

People have no problems downloading, and most computers are set to boot from CD anyway.

Honestly speaking, there would only really be a need for the program on Windows.

Yep, probably. It's also the biggest recruitment pool.

Better yet, I don't suppose our person who started this thread knows how to program in something that'll run on Windows?

As a matter of fact, I do, and I do it professionally, although I've not done any programming on CD burning. However, I've just bought myself a new house, and am in the process of selling my old, after which most of my spare time will go to moving and fixing my new house (quite big, but with a need for repairs and remodelling). Realistically, I will not have time to do any major programming project outside work for the next year or so. That's the reason I brought it up here, instead of going the more convenient route of just starting to churn out code.

I do feel it's safe to say that if they can't be bothered to learn how to burn an ISO, perhaps they're not ready to be doing their own install.

In my experience, install is simple for them, as is using the OS once they get used to programs being named slightly differently. The biggest hurdle for them is the first, if they get past that, it's smooth sailing.

Users at that level should either be pointed at a solution like buying a *buntu machine from Dell or System 76, or you should be actually doing the first install for them. At the very least, burn the CD for them and save them the trouble.

Actually, if possible, I do the install for them or provide the CD, but often, they don't live in my home town, or nearby towns. Pre-installed machines are not an option here.

I can't see how either of these options are going to cause problems for someone, even a Windows user with no technical knowledge.

Well, if you, like me, is in Sweden, they mean having to wait 2-4 weeks before you can run your brand new machine. Most people don't have that much patience.

Burning a CD from an ISO is not too difficult if anyone takes a few seconds to read the instructions first and then to follow them. If anyone can make the process easier, it will be helpful to many.

Have you watched a non-technical user try to burn an ISO? It's not pretty. Hand them some instructions, and the only thing you achieve is convincing them that "if it needs instructions, it's too hard for me". Doubleclick on an installer and following prompts is much less scary for them.

**dibl** · Jul 30, 2009, 10:06 AM

Re: Burning ISO's is a big hurdle for newbies

So, do I understand that the proposal is to develop "ISO Burner", a Windows app especially designed to select an ISO file and make a bootable CD in 3 clicks?

Hmmmmmm.

I can kinda envision the customer support requests already ... "I've tried everything, and it still won't burn my mp3s on the CD -- where's the music button?".

My honest opinion -- it's a solution looking for a problem. It is true that people who have never previously made a bootable CD by burning the ISO image will normally stumble around a bit, and it's true that they're all Windows users in the first place. But, if they're going to have to use Google to find "ISO Burner", then they're not any better off than the ones who google "how to burn an iso file" today, and get these hits (the first 3 on the list that came up from Google):

http://www.petri.co.il/how_to_write_iso_files_to_cd.htm

http://pcsupport.about.com/od/toolso...urnisofile.htm

http://iso.snoekonline.com/iso.htm

Just my two cents' worth.

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