Package manager rant/discussion

[fidesratioque]

In Adept, the old installer, I used to be able to just run a search for 'fonts microsoft' and get the core fonts. Now I don't get any hits when I search for that. I wonder what's going on with the new package manager? It seems totally messed up.

[aged hippy]

Re: How to get Microsoft core fonts?

This may be a foolish question, but have you tried searching for mstt ?

[fidesratioque]

Re: How to get Microsoft core fonts?

This may be a foolish question, but have you tried searching for mstt ?

Thanks, I found it, but I downloaded Adept instead, which seems to get the job done much better.

I'll try mstt in the other package manager just for curiosity's sake, though. Seems to me that the developers made a huge mistake in removing Adept. Most new users to Linux would have problems using the new package manager, to put it mildly.

[aged hippy]

Re: How to get Microsoft core fonts?

.... I've only just realised that you're running Jaunty, i don't usually follow too closely what problems it's users run across, i'm still using Hardy. 8)

I find Adept manager to be 100% reliable but i suppose that the developers for some reason found whatever-package-manager Jaunty uses to be ... better.

[KeithZG]

Re: How to get Microsoft core fonts?

.... I've only just realised that you're running Jaunty, i don't usually follow too closely what problems it's users run across, i'm still using Hardy. 8)

I find Adept manager to be 100% reliable but i suppose that the developers for some reason found whatever-package-manager Jaunty uses to be ... better.

That's not quite it, AFAIK. Adept's dev gives his farewell at http://web.mornfall.net/blog/farewell__44___adept.html. The ideas behind KPackageKit (and PackageKit in general) can be read in this interview: http://polishlinux.org/kde/kpackagekit-interview/ I'm thinking that the idea behind replacing Adept was less that KPackageKit is better now, and more just joining in on the general move towards using the opendesktop.org standards, since this is all about using PolicyKit and PackageKit.

(As a sidenote, if all this worked out, then the Kubuntu devs would only have to ship a copy of Ubuntu with the stock KDE4 packages, and there's no doubt that the devs are overworked and understaffed, so that kind of dramatic reduction in their workload would be good for everyone.)

Personally I can see the draw, and in theory I could support it. However, as it stands so far the actual real-world implementation is a mess; unfortunately that's somewhat what we get in Kubuntu since we're living a bit more on the bleeding edge than Ubuntu (they certainly didn't drop Synaptic for the GTK PackageKit frontend!) just by virtue of using KDE on a distro that's chosen/had-to to run with KDE4 exclusively, or at least exclusively in an official sense (I do love me some KDE3-remix).

As someone who looks to the future as much as I can, I like it. As someone who tries to evangelize about Kubuntu to other people, I hate it. As someone who has a lot of esoteric setups that get broken easily, I'm a bit on the negative side but you can tell how torn I am from the fact that I'm running Hardy on my main desktop and trying desperately to resist jumping to Karmic on my laptop here, haha!

[fidesratioque]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Heh, thanks, I retitled this thread a little more accurately. :P

[sjhstorm]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

In Adept, the old installer, I used to be able to just run a search for 'fonts microsoft' and get the core fonts. Now I don't get any hits when I search for that. I wonder what's going on with the new package manager? It seems totally messed up.

KPackageKit allows you to search with three different options 1. Find by name 2. Find by description 3. Find by file name. Using your search of "fonts microsoft" and using 2. Find by description, would have given you what you wanted. It's not messed up it working how it should, if you had searched "mscorefonts" for instance it would have found it by 1. Find by name.

[aged hippy]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

I realise that change is inevitable, but it seems to me that maybe the new ought to be thoroughly tested and implemented before it's released into the wild.

I gave up trying to update Intrepid with KDE 4x simply because of the terrible app which replaced Adept, the <Search> function seemed to be totally crippled, and i just got sick of struggling and gave up.

Maybe one day someone will realise that to release the latest 'flavour' (Intrepid, Jaunty, Karmic, etc.) with apps that either need command-line knowledge to run them, or that are only partly implemented, or are - to put it bluntly - broken, will lead to more and more of those new-comers who wish to get away from Microsoft OSs getting the impression that Linux is only for command-line gurus, or for those who prefer spending longer bodging the OS to make it work, rather than actually using it.

There is a great danger that more new-comers to Linux will be scared off, rather than become actual users.

For myself, i've decided to stick with Kubuntu and Mepis (the default boot) as long as i can keep them updated and use the KDE 3.5 desktop.
I fully realise that there won't be any major updates, but i'm happy with what i've got.

I'll happily leave the bleeding-edge to those with armoured gloves.

[kimdino]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Hi folk,

I tend to try and stay well away from the bleeding edge. However, as my old computer was getting a bity long in the tooth I bought a new computer a couple of months ago. On moving my Hardy setup onto it I found that the nVidia chipset was too new to be supported in the 2.6.24 kernel (don't even mention me attempting to backport) I was forced to move to Jaunty. In general, very pleasantly surprised at the OSes smoothness and stability but with two downsides:-

(i) yes, the package manger - I've was quite happy with Adept but since using Jaunty I gravitated to using 'apt-get' or 'dpkg' on the CLI went I need to do package management. I am now installing 'Adept'.

(ii) KDE4 - Perhaps I should start by noting that I am definitely a KDE person. I have been using it since Mandrake 7.0. I tried Gnome, Enlightenment et al a few years ago but was too happy with KDE. KDE3.5 was (IMHO) the best desktop conceivable. But KDE4 is driving me onto Gnome. I just see added useless functionality with reduced usability. What made KDE great seems to have been stripped out - where has the left-click on desktop to shutdown gone, what's this virtual desktop rubbish, why can't I individually customise my multiple desktops anymore etc. I just see something very bloated trying too hard to look pretty, I was married to something like that once and don't want it again <G>. Can someone PLEASE add KDE3.5 to the Jaunty repositories so I can use apt-get (certainly not 'KPackageKit) to install it?

Cheers, Kimdino

[GreyGeek]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

....
But KDE4 is driving me onto Gnome. I just see added useless functionality with reduced usability. What made KDE great seems to have been stripped out - where has the left-click on desktop to shutdown gone, what's this virtual desktop rubbish, why can't I individually customize my multiple desktops anymore etc. I just see something very bloated trying too hard to look pretty, I was married to something like that once and don't want it again <G>. Can someone PLEASE add KDE3.5 to the Jaunty repositories so I can use apt-get (certainly not 'KPackageKit) to install it?

Cheers, Kimdino

Hey, Kimdino, I find just the opposite is truth with my KDE4 experience. It has MUCH more functionality than KDE3.5, IMO, and I haven't seen any bloat. Oh, the "left-click" to shutdown isn't gone. It is now in the right click popup dialog, called "Leave" and with the RED square with the white circle with a vertical line through it. You can also put that functionality in the tool bar: right mouse on the tool panel, select "Panel options" and then "Add Widgets". The red box will show in the list of widgets. Add it and it will show up on the tool bar. It may not show up where you want it. Click on the "cashew" on the right end of the tool panel. A second, black panel appears above the tool panel. Move you mouse over the red button, and click and drag it to were you want it and release the mouse. Click the little red X in the right side of the black panel to close it. Easy.

I especially like the way KDE4.2.3 treats the removable media and adds the "Safely Remove" feature to the places panel on Dolphine, which I think is a fantastic file manager. In fact, I never use Konqueror as either a browser or file manger any more.

As far as your bloated former wife is concerned, people who can't find fulfillment in their lives usually resort to the pleasure of eating or shopping, or both. The fact that you would criticize her in a public forum says a lot about you. Unappreciated people end up running up their waist size or their credit debt. I've been married to my bride for 47 years, but for the first 30 years I was too arrogant and career driven to realize what she had been suffering as a result of my neglect, until I had my epiphany nearly 20 years ago. I realized that I very lucky she stayed around, probably for the sake of our two children, because I certainly didn't deserve her. I still have a lot to make up for, and I am very glad she stayed with me. Even more so since she almost died following heart surgery three years ago.

[kimdino]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Hi GreyGeek,

Firstly, re. your last paragraph.
Sorry, but this was something made up to add a lighter touch to the post, perhaps it's not too PC but many might have found a chuckle in there. I agree that putting real peoples personal stuff on a public forum would be in very bad taste. I apologise if I gave offence by this comment.

Re. the left-click on desktop.
Sorry, I meant 'right-click' but I forgot about my mouse button reversal. Maybe it been returned in 4.2.3 but I can't see it there in 4.2.2. Btw I don't want it on the panel, I want it on the right-click popup. However, if it has been restored in 4.2.3, then great.

Re. the functionality.
3.5 was wonderfully configurable whereas 4 seems to have be missing a lot the options previously available. The only added options I have seen have been KDE prettiness gadgets. Where do you check the partition setup, how do you manage cron (task scheduling), network tweaking is able to connect a single computer to the internet using DHCP but there seem to be zero facilities for getting my LAN working,.. and the list goes on.

One of the criticisms always levelled at Linux was that you needed to be a CLI geek to manage a Linux system. I used to like Mandrake for its Control Centre as this rubbished this claim & one thing I looked for when I chose a Debian based system was similar GUI system management which is why I chose Kubuntu (Gutsy). With Jaunty, when this charge is leveled I'd have to be apologetic and mumble about some distros having it but not 'nice user-freindly' Kubuntu. For this reason Jaunty & KDE4 appear to have lost functionality and taken a big step backwards.

And as for having the same setup across all desktops, that I do not like. I would be grateful if someone could point me to a configuration file somewhere that I could tweak with a text editor, but doesn't having to do that prove my point? Where has it gone from the KDE desktop settings tool?

I can understand that the 'Safely Remove' could be better for some. However, I liked the removable filesystem to appear on my desktop where it was just another shortcut to a folder like the other key folder shortcuts, then simply selecting 'Unmount' from the right-click popup to remove it. Perhaps changing the wording to 'Safely Remove' rather than 'Unmount' would have made it easier to understand, but why remove that way of working altogether?

Cheers, Kimdino

[KeithZG]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Can someone PLEASE add KDE3.5 to the Jaunty repositories so I can use apt-get (certainly not 'KPackageKit) to install it?

Cheers, Kimdino

I swear I replied here but I guess I forgot to hit "post" or something, heh. It isn't in the official repos, but there's a semi-official repo for installing KDE3 in Jaunty. Here's the wiki entry and the actual site:
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Kde3/Jaunty
http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/

I run it on my laptop since KDE4 keeps locking up on me on it (my main desktop is still Hardy/KDE3.5 and my projector computer is just an OpenBox session running XBMC; my spare desktop computer I keep on the absolute bleeding edge so I'm upgrading it to Karmic in the background right now haha) and also because, like you, I find there's too many features I always use in 3.5 that are still missing from 4.2 for my liking (a random example: the "paste clipboard contents" option upon right-clicking on a file manager whitespace).

For me the ease at which one can run KDE 3.5 on Jaunty is actually troublesome since I've been trying to convince myself to stay with Hardy on my main computer for as long as possible, since I have atrocious luck with Kubuntu upgrades on it (I've yet to do an upgrade on my main PC that hasn't left major things broken for at least a month), but the promise of Jaunty is calling me . . . thank god for LTS's and the fact that none of my hardware needs the newness to fix anything.

[kevinc]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

I just found this post today, as recently I had made some comments on an older post which were very well answered by Rog explaining the end of Adept 3.0 with KDE 4.

Like most people, I've been less than impressed with PackageKit as the new package manager, but apt-get is still reliable and works very well.

I suspect that most people running Kubuntu do so because it leans more towards cutting edge than Debian for example which leans towards rock solid. Linux gives great choices; distros, desktops, packages, etcetera. I think that many using Kubuntu would be running Jaunty, although reading the forums, there are some using one of the previous releases. Using the current and the alphas and beta helps a distro to improve. I think that most Kubuntu users don't mind too much when there are slight problems with a package - such as package manager, as discussion, bug reports aids development resulting in a better product. Most of us users would like a better Kubuntu and I consider the small inconvenience of minor problems a small price to pay for the overall security, reliability, stability and usability of an OS that I prefer and enjoy.

[growled]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Like most people, I've been less than impressed with PackageKit as the new package manager, but apt-get is still reliable and works very well.

It does a fair job adding and removing software, which is all I use a package manager for anyway. For updates and everything else I prefer to use CLI and apt-get. So Packagekit does the job for me much better than Adept did. Actually Adept was the program to drove me to learn CLI commands. It was an awful program. I'm glad it's gone.

Overall, I find KDE 4 a much better experience than 3. And "Leave" is still comes up on right click on 4.3 Beta 2.

[KeithZG]

Re: Package manager rant/discussion

Overall, I find KDE 4 a much better experience than 3. And "Leave" is still comes up on right click on 4.3 Beta 2.

I wish I had your luck; KDE 4 still hangs and does wonky things (like constantly muddling up the panel) on my main desktop for me, while KDE 3.5 is flawless (hence why I keep my main install of Hardy on and just test newer KDE/Kubuntu versions on a spare partition). Not that there aren't ways in which 4 is theoretically an improvement (especially for most of the apps, even if some have seriously regressed), and I don't really hold it against the devs that they haven't yet written from scratch a desktop environment that'll handle my TwinView-with-different-shaped-monitors desktop running on the NVIDIA binary blob drivers. I mean, I'm surprised it really works at all (unfortunately I've been unable to get a third monitor working, but I bet if I did then even KDE 3.5 would freak out).

The fact that it crashes on my Intel-as-everything laptop is another matter, of course, but admittedly that thing's crappy enough anyways that it's much saner to run OpenBox or LXDE on it.