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KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

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    KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

    Sorry for the rant but I have to get this off of my chest.

    I started using Kubuntu back in the days of the beta versions of dapper. I quickly and easily was able to configure my desktop in ways that I had wished that I could do for years and I was in heaven. I have tried to contribute back to the Ubuntu/Kubuntu community as much as possible. I am heavily involved with my local LUG and actually helped to resurrect it. I almost always test alpha and beta and pre-release repos and contribute bug reports. I have written several how-to's in the ubuntu forums.

    I am very upset now though. The decision to move to kde4 was a good one. The decision to remove kde 3.5 from the repos was one of the worst ones ever! I fear that it may even kill Kubuntu! There are several members of my local lug that have moved to other distros as a result, and if you look anywhere on the net you will find many kubuntu users abandoning ship. It is fact, not opinions that Kubuntu has lost many previous, and potential users due to this decision. This is due to one simple fact:

    KDE 4.X IS SIMPLY NOT USABLE FOR MANY OF US! At least not for a daily desktop that must be depended on.

    The list of problems and bugs is enormus. All of the configurability, powerfullness, and stable out of the box usability that drew me to the distro when I started out in linux is gone.

    Many of the problems that I experience on a daily basis are not simply because of my setup or hardware. They are known bugs and missing features that are well known and have been triaged and will be dealt with in kde 4.2, or 4.3, or when the kde team can get to them. I did as much testing of kde4 as possible in gutsy in order to try to help move things along. I contributed to testing during intrepid alpha and beta. I expect things to break and have bugs when testing pre releases but not in a final release. To have a stable desktop for daily use I need to either use gnome, xfce, or boot to gutsy with kde 3.5.

    At this point my desktop is not productive for me under intrepid and is unstable. I don't use compositing, I don't care about eye candy, I just want to get work done. KDE4 has a great potential for increasing my productivity, but definitely not at this time. I am even one of the lucky ones as I have many fewer unsolvable issues than many other users whom I have tried to help.

    I and many others have had to make a choice since the release of intrepid:

    1. switch distros
    2. move to gnome, xfce, etc. for our desktop
    3. enable unsupported personal repos to get kde 3.5
    4. compile and build our own kde 3.5 packages
    5. remain on gutsy, which is not an option for those needing the improved networking, or graphics driver support of intrepid

    Here are my complaints:
    1. There are two many applications that I used to use on a daily basis that are now missing
    2. I can't sync my phone without going through 3 different hacked up work-arounds that I myself helped to contribute, and calendar sync is still hit or miss.
    3. plasmoids are not stable at this point
    4. forget using compositing on a good deal of hardware at this time (it was working at one point now it's slooow.)
    5. I am missing valuable desktop space due to lack of configurability and applications
    6. Applications crash due to broken bits of KDE4
    7. the repos are broken, many packages that can not satisfy dependencies yet (i.e. kitchensync) this is due to upstream issues but the packages that can't have their dependencies met should not be in the repos.

    And the list goes on.

    The Kubuntu team has in my opinion refused to listen to the many daily users of the distro who have pleaded for kde 3.5 packages. Many of us have contributed significantly to improving the distro over the years and now we are being ignored. That is perhaps the most upsetting point.

    Give us back kde 3.5 in the repos and we will continue to help with the development of kde4 packages. By not giving us the choice it has driven many of us away and the distro then looses testers and contributers. This is exactly the opposite of what the reasoning was when the decision to include kde4 was made.

    What do you think?

    #2
    Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

    Let me apologize for being more confrontational in the first post than I intended. I meant it to be more constructive criticism.

    I do and will continue to use Kubuntu and try to contribute as much as possible. I think that kde 4.2 will be a very important milestone, and that 4.3 will most likely return kde to it's former status as king of the DE's as far as my personal use is concerned.

    As I questioned in the first post.... What are your thoughts?

    Comment


      #3
      Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

      It sounds to me like you have very valid issues with kde 4 and you have done a lot of work to solve those issues but without much success thus far.

      I think it comes down to expectation levels and use cases.

      For me, most of what I use my computer for is perfectly functional in kde 4. The parts that don't work yet can be annoying, but my expectations are still fairly low in those areas.

      I do think that the developers have done a good job in keeping the userbase up to date with what works, what doesn't, and what the roadmaps are to improve kde 4. Because of that I have some extra patience and toleration with the bugs.

      But I can perfectly understand that in other use cases kde 4 just doesn't cut it. Hopefully it will soon. I certainly know that a feverish amount of work is ongoing, so I'm hopeful.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

        Your desktop might still be functional but there might still be bugs you didn't run into yet or maybe you just accept more 'annoyances.' I am not surprised some users are frustrated and disappointed with the release. I didn't think it would be ready. I know I'm still closer to 'newbie status' but I still think I can have a say. I think they took on too much and like Linus said, they broke a lot of things or so it seems.

        Hopefully, they'll fix things, though. I would hope they might be open to some suggestions, too, and I'd like to offer some. I like the potential of it. I like how it works still more than Gnome but I would still choose the one (i.e. desktop) that's less buggy.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

          I'd just like to say that 8.10 / KDE4 is complete rubbish from my experience. Neither the i386 nor amd64 desktop discs would let me install. The window manager kept locking up while displaying the first couple windows (whatever they may have been as that I could only see outlines.

          Now after wasting more time with the two alternative discs I can log in via kdm, see the desktop, and STOP. (whammie!) Launching just about any application locks up the WM, Xorg spins up to 100% CPU, and the machine is locked. The only option is to ssh into the machine from remote (insert grumble about ssh-server not included by default or as an install time option here) and kill the xserver. I have used the nvidia 177 and 180 packages as well as using the nvidia installer to compile the kernel modules. All net the same result.

          I don't know if this is a Xorg or KDE4 issue, but quite frankly I don't care. I am a fairly proficient Linux/Unix admin. That being said I expect my desktop to "just work" much like a carpenter expects his hammer to "just work." If I wanted to spend endless hours troubleshooting my "hammer" I would install Slackware or DSL. I moved to Ubuntu when SuSE sold out and I got acquainted with Debian Sarge on servers. I liked it because it let me got up and running quickly and allowed me to get back to real work. I am sure I can make this work, but do I want to spend the time on it? I know for certain that the average end user / potential convert would have given up by now and stuck with Windows.

          For now it looks like I need to revert back to 8.04, select a different WM/DM, or go find another distro. Kubuntu 8.10 "Irratating Ibex" is just not cutting it. Sorry to continue the rant but I feel quite let down as well just like the OP.

          P.S. My hardware is not exotic - AMD X2 4200, 2GB PC3200, eVGA nv 8800 GT.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

            Xubuntu 8.10 hangs as well. Starting to smell an Xorg issue more so than KDE4 (at least in my case)

            8.04 here I come! /me un-hijacks this thread

            Comment


              #7
              Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

              I have to say I have not had much issues with 64bit 8.10 4.1 or 4.2 B or RC.
              I have installed and run well on a HP NC 6400 Centrino Duo laptop, in a VirtualBox setup on a HP XW400 Core 2 Duo workstation on top of Vista x64 Business ( to be fair I have not tried much in this system ) , and an AMD Phenom 9600 Quadcore, 4 GB PC2-6400, ati 3870.

              My main issue with KDE 4.x is the lack of multi-monitor support and that is the Xorg related changes they are doing where they are moving away from the xorg.conf arrangement as I understand it.
              The multi-monitor stuff only matters on my amd system and for that I may consider rolling back to 8.04 KDE 3 but I will not be abandoning Kubuntu or KDE especially not for Gnome.

              I should mention that I am surprised at what all does work well on the laptop albeit sometimes a bit slow, it has been my most used and tinkered with installation.
              Kubuntu 18.04 on AMD

              Comment


                #8
                Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                Basically, KDE 4.X was released too soon. I am finding a lot of bugs including those to do with Kopete.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                  I completely agree with you about KDE 4.X. I switched to Kubuntu Hardy to use on three computers at work and at home. I'm a multiple Linux server admin, and Konsole (KDE 3.5) is just the best terminal I've used for multiple concurrent sessions. I succumbed to the temptation to upgrade my home desktop to Kubuntu 8.10 and I lived with it for a couple of months unhappily, until last weekend I moved back to a fresh install of Kubuntu 8.04 and have been VERY happy with the decision. I know where everything is, how it works, how to configure it, etc. I found KDE 4.1 to be buggy, inflexible, and confusing, even after several weeks. I plan to stick with Hardy until support for it ends, and I hope that there will be continuing development of KDE 3.5.X, since KDE 4.X just doesn't let me work the way I need to.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                    I don't mind the changes since I am not really sure whether I'd like them or not since there are a lot of bugs.

                    Anyone notice a bug when Kubuntu is in sleep mode? There's no activity and everything is idle. The screen goes black but there's still a portion left of Firefox. I assume whatever window is up will have a 'chunk' left. So, the rest of the screen is black but a part of the window is still showing.

                    What is that?!?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                      Originally posted by chrissharp123
                      I completely agree with you about KDE 4.X. I switched to Kubuntu Hardy to use on three computers at work and at home. I'm a multiple Linux server admin, and Konsole (KDE 3.5) is just the best terminal I've used for multiple concurrent sessions. I succumbed to the temptation to upgrade my home desktop to Kubuntu 8.10 and I lived with it for a couple of months unhappily, until last weekend I moved back to a fresh install of Kubuntu 8.04 and have been VERY happy with the decision. I know where everything is, how it works, how to configure it, etc. I found KDE 4.1 to be buggy, inflexible, and confusing, even after several weeks. I plan to stick with Hardy until support for it ends, and I hope that there will be continuing development of KDE 3.5.X, since KDE 4.X just doesn't let me work the way I need to.
                      I find incredibly funny how people's memories are so short, I remember that KDE 3.5 was pretty crap until about 3.5.6 and it wasn't solid until 3.5.9.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                        Originally posted by Teunis
                        Yes KDE4.* is a beta and it was foolish to not include 3.5 in the latest distro.
                        You're entitled to your opinion, but it is easy to say something is foolish if you don't have to do the work yourself...along those lines you can also say it's foolish they don't fix all the bugs.

                        It's not simply packaging the desktop in the repos. If included, they would have to include official support for it for the life cycle of the distribution. And who knows if the KDE people will provide security fixes for KDE3 for that duration?

                        It was said in the release announcement of 8.10 that if you want KDE3, then stay with 8.04 which will be supported fully for it's life cycle. I don't really understand the need to upgrade for the sake of upgrading (what has the 8.10 brought in comparison to 8.04 besides KDE4?).

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                          what has the 8.10 brought in comparison to 8.04 besides KDE4?:
                          Well, one of the last problems linux has: newer drivers, esp. v4l for me watching TV with my DVB-T stick. Anyway I was lucky to find a dkms package, otherwise i would have to dist upgrade for 1 driver (or compile myself everytime a new kernel update happens, but tell that the normal user...)

                          To the topic: Stick with 8.04, it works like a charm, although KDE4.2 on Jaunty rocks big time.

                          Greetings

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                            Just my 2.5 cents:
                            http://randomtechoutburst.blogspot.c...-heres-my.html
                            HP Pavilion dv6 core i7 (Main)
                            4 GB Ram
                            Kubuntu 18.10

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: KDE 4.x still beta IMO!!!!

                              Originally posted by dragon76
                              I do and will continue to use Kubuntu and try to contribute as much as possible. I think that kde 4.2 will be a very important milestone, and that 4.3 will most likely return kde to it's former status as king of the DE's as far as my personal use is concerned.
                              As I questioned in the first post.... What are your thoughts?
                              I think "user experience" is one of the important factors. KDE 4 desktop is much slower than KDE3 even on my brand-new desktop computer (good cpu, video card and plenty of mem). However, the main effort is put into feature-completeness and the speed optimization would only be done in a much later stage. IMO KDE4 is good-designed but bad-implemented.

                              F/OSS developers likes reinventing the wheel, and (sadly) that is the truth. KDE4 is one of the examples, it re-writes most sources and reuses only a small part of KDE3 code. That is the reason KDE4 so unstable now, there's no doubt KDE4 will be stable, but that takes time and effort.

                              Anyway, the problem may not just be KDE4, I suspect we may encounter similar problems for some other open-source softwares . i.e. when the author of the open-source software changes and the development team decides to abandon old code and create something new, it would make many current users unhappy. That may be the price we have to pay for, if we choose to use open-source software.

                              The above may be a reason why F/OSS developers likes reinventing the wheel, since "if I don't develop for myself, my favorite software may be abandoned or replaced someday. then I should create a new project for my own, which will last forever, when I'm alive."

                              Obviously, some of the old advanced KDE3 users will leave KDE family when he sees the badly implemented KDE4, and create his own desktop applications. When F/OSS remains about "the choice", we cannot avoid reinventing the wheel at all.

                              Comment

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