For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

[Fintan]

I have been reading a lot of lots over the last few months, and especially since the release of II (8.10), bashing kubuntu in general and kde4 in specifically for kde4 and its inclusion in Kubuntu.

So I thought I would share this tidbit with you:
http://weblog.obso1337.org/2008/on-d...buntu-and-kde/

As always: enjoy

[divide0]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Intersting article. Thanks for sharing it.

I am one of those that has yet to go with KDE4 or Kubuntu 8.10. I am simply not ready for it yet. However, as soon as KDE4 becomes more stable, I'll probably upgrade to 8.10 when I get my next computer. I've tried KDE4 on 8.04, and ran into a lot of problems. But, I have confidence that KDE4 will become stable sometime in the future.

I disagree that KDE4 and/or 8.10 is/are the "Vista" of Kubuntu. It will be stable eventually...

[askrieger]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

I have a somewhat different perspective. I upgraded to Intrepid two days after it was released. I expected to be mildly baffled by the new UI and I was.

I might have stuck it out (muttering imprecations at the KDE project and the Kubuntu developers' decision), but there were serious (for me) difficulties. My multi-button trackball didn't work. When I tried to fix it, I learned that xorg.conf was inoperative, etc., etc. I assumed, however, that as time went on, I would figure it out (with the help of this forum). I always had before. I had switched from Mandrake to Debian to Kubuntu successfully.

But then, over the course of a week, my system slippped away. First trivia (My numlock started getting reset at boot even though it was cofigured to come up turned on.), then annoying (The system stopped recognizing my auxiliary drives on boot.), then serious (My sound went out after five or six days.), Then, a day later, fatal(Firefox told me it couldn't reach the net.).

I booted up Knoppix. It had sound. My numlock worked. Firefox worked. I could see both my Zip drive and my external backup drive. I re-installed Hardy and I've been a happy camper since.

At first, I thought that this was a KDE4 problem. After all, Dolpin sux, so what does that say about the rest of the system? But then, I discovered that the Ubuntu developers had instituted even more changes to the underlying system than they had going from Gutsy to Hardy. Virtually all my problems (not just my mouse) were due to "design decisions" by the distro developers.

I will keep working with Hardy until Jaunty is released. If my system is still unusable, I will switch distros at that point.

[Fintan]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Yeah, I hear you

Although all of this:

But then, over the course of a week, my system slippped away. First trivia (My numlock started getting reset at boot even though it was cofigured to come up turned on.), then annoying (The system stopped recognizing my auxiliary drives on boot.), then serious (My sound went out after five or six days.), Then, a day later, fatal(Firefox told me it couldn't reach the net.).

baffles me completely.

None, of the above happened to me. :P

I probably would think the same, in fact I do to an extent.

If I had to replace my P IV 5 / 6 year old system or had a new laptop (which I soon will) I know I would

I am by no means an expert but some of the "changes" that to gods who are make in the name of "userfriendliness" are just too off the top.

Knoppix id a case in hand. They have always been great at hardware detection.

On the other hand I used knoppix before changing to Kubuntu and just love this community.

I used /tested) mepis 7.0, best kde distro (imvho) out there but again the community drove me back to kubuntu.

I am not up to the rtfmah attitude of pure debian.

Tried mandriva spring 2008 and 2009. I love their control center.
Wish we had something even comparable.
And their HW detection is very comparable to Knoppix.

Hate rpm and again the community drove me back to...you guessed it..Kubuntu.
Ditto for PCLinux

So, I will probably test a mepis with kde4.2 (if that every happens within 2009)

Yes, I do hear you and hope my venture into laptops goes at least halfway decently.

[askrieger]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Frankly, I have no idea why it happened either. The only "difficult" hardware that I have is a Kensington trackball and there's a page on the Ubuntu Wiki that has detailed instructions for setting that up that worked well as long as *buntu used xorg.conf!

[noelvh]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

I disagree that KDE4 and/or 8.10 is/are the "Vista" of Kubuntu. It will be stable eventually...

Well I am using it and have to say for me it was very Vista like!!

First, it was very buggy for me and was all most unusable, just as vista (pista) was no my laptop.
After a number of updates, and some tweaks to my wifi it has surpassed vista (pista).
Now Vista (pista) after 3 months is still unusable on my laptop.
So on this point one can see it being very much like PISTA, but time (a very short amount) changed that. Look up some of my posts from a month ago and you well see me bitching about KB 8.10.

Second, KB 8.10 is like Vista (pista) in the drastic change to its look and feel, and this is still the case for me. KB 8.10 is a hole new OS with losts to learn, and play with. Unlike vista (pista) KB 8.10 works well with lower over head, and looks F**ken great.

As a control I have used these OSs on my laptop. They are listed in order of speed.
Pista- very slow
Freespire - fast
Linspire- fast
XP Pro- fast
Kubuntu- 7 very fast
Kubuntu- 8 kde3 very fast
Kubuntu- 8.10 very fast (this runs the best sofar on my system)

I have an IBM T43 with a P4 1.8 (running at 1.86, and under XP it runs at 1.79), with 2 gb ram.

This is one happy camper.

Noe Vh

[Qqmike]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

@ Fintan
Interesting blog opinion/perspective you linked in your OP.

I keep thinking in terms of KDE4 being a "paradigm change," resisting it, etcetera. However, after reading the blog opinion, a better (healthier) perspective might be at the next level: The paradigm of change itself. For me, that unblocks the blockage. Just an old hippy here, not wanting to fall by the wayside, but really liking the look-and-feel of the K world. I'm not ready to abandon my rock solid trustworthy convenient intuitive reliable fun familiar 8.04 just yet. But I will, just for the mental exercise, adjust my resistant attitude to this KDE change.

It does raise the question, too, What is an OS supposed to do for the user? Is "continuity" and "easy access/use" in there somewhere? I'm going through some things on my end right now where I can't afford to be down for even part of a day; and I read that in other posts--people come to rely on and need the use of their PCs to get things done. So, paradigms, aside, the devs, it seems to me, really need to keep that in mind as they break new frontiers bossing electrons around into new patterns of bits and bytes called software.

That's what I know this fine morning.
Thanks for the blog-perspective, Fintan.

[MoonRise]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Hmmm....All very interesting. I never experienced any overly complicated problems. Really, the only problem I've run into is the much talked about "Fliker" problem on many Intel GMA display cards, but I really did not view that as a Kubuntu thing. Maybe it is, but I found II very refreshing. Also I did not view it as Vistaish. I've used Vista. II is no Vista. Far from it. I really do believe it is the new "Desktop" ideology that gets must users. KDE4's actually suites me more than KDE3.5.9 (and I liked it) or XP. I truly understand how either side of the argument feel, but I am also one who has seen computing and OS ideology change at a fast rate that I have always took it as I might as well learn it. From that I have grown to love learning new ideas behind computing, which helps me "accept" the change.

Hmmm....just really interesting how everyone views computing differently. I still don't agree with the Vista comparison though. II works way better on my laptop then Vista did. As a matter a fact, all I could run on it was Vista Basic.

I'll stop rambling..

[claydoh]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

I got my first taste of vista last week when helping my boss clean up his slow-and-getting-slower desktop. I am of course biased here, but I don't see any real solid similarities between KDE4 and MS Vista, other than a few graphical effects.

I found I had no real trouble finding things to tinker and tweak on that desktop, with only minor web searching needed. Things were laid out differently, so it was just a matter of looking and learning. (Vista was truly awful, though - my P4-M 2.0ghz 5 year old laptop was way, waaayyy snappier than that P4 3.6-ish ghz desktop, and that UAC thing is way way waaayyy stupid and intrusive, sudo/kdesudo is much easier to manage )

I feel it is the same way between KDE 3 and 4. The desktops may look different, and have some different concepts between them, but running a program, checking email, opening a text document, et al is still the same.

Once KDE4.2 is out (try out project neon for a taste!) there will be less qualms as at least folks will be able to go back to a 'classic' desktop paradigm if they wish.

[musta ruhtinas]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Thank you for an interesting reading, Fintan. I can't really say I share the author's opinions though (and I even think he contradicts himself a couple of times).

I started with KDE 4.0 shortly after its "final" release and it was an awful experience. Finding my way around was very easy (and I think most KDE 3.5.x users will quickly adapt to 4.x), but overall nothing really worked. There has been real progress since then, but still, a year later to get to the point of rejoicing that a fresh svn compile is "almost there"... Not to mention that it even isn't complete yet: how ironic that the "flagship" app of KDE comes in it's 3.5 version, and so do both k3b and digikam.
I don't think layout and the concept behind it is the users' main concern here, but reliability and usability. As bugs and glitches are fixed criticism will fade. After much annoyance and a brief visit over to GNOME I can say I'm again starting to enjoy using KDE. So will others.

As for the Vista comparison, I always thought people meant KDE4 is, compared to KDE3, what Vista is, compared to XP.
My laptop came preinstalled with Vista, and the OS was a behemoth. Very stable if nothing else. Couldn't get the thing to crash, but it was so sluggish that it didn't really matter. A total regression, imho.
KDE4 is by no means like that. Not in terms of performance, not in terms of design. But it is still a work in progress and should be treated as such.

[kevinc]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Reading the article, I think that I can see the author's point of view.

There are many posts which indicate a level of unhappiness with the current Intrepid release and particularly with KDE 4. I've used a few versions of Kubuntu, since 6.06 and found 8.04 especially suitable for my notebook and needs. I'm running Intrepid (8.10) since beta and while slightly uncertain in the beginning have found that everything works, somethings don't yet have the level of flexibility that KDE 3.5 had, but I'm able to do all that I want to do on my notebook. I also have Hardy and find that I'm using Intrepid more, and Hardy less.

Of course, it would have been great if there were less massive changes between KDE 3 and KDE 4. If anyone feels strongly about it, then they are welcome to input into the KDE development and even to join them. Same for Kubuntu. Criticism is helpful if constructive, it can build a better system. Many comments about KDE 4.1 will help to make KDE 4.2 a better KDE and Kubuntu a better distro. I expect by the time 9.04 is released that there may be some reluctance to let go of Intrepid and try the new Jaunty.

[MoonRise]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

I expect by the time 9.04 is released that there may be some reluctance to let go of Intrepid and try the new Jaunty.

Yep. I'm sure there will be.

[askrieger]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

I feel impelled to point out that there are some knowledgeable folks who do not agree with the opinions of Obso1337. Among them are the Debian developers. Debian is the mother and source for *buntu. However, unlike *buntu Debian is designed for pros both people who run server farms and people who administer a LOT of desktops. Debian is split into three distros, Stable (which means set and forget), Testing (which means more stable than any other distro) and Unstable (where *buntu gets most of its packages). As of yesterday, Unstable was still offering KDE 3.5.9 (although they have a few kde4 packages). One can conjecture that the Debian folks believe that KDE4 is not yet ready for sysadmins who would have to fix problems from normal users.

[Snowhog]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

Which supports what I believe about Kubuntu, and which everyone should bear in mind when switching to Kubuntu, that being Kubuntu is a 'cutting edge' Linux disto. Developers are pushing the envelope and being innovative. I find that exciting. Like evolution, some changes aren't viable, and disappear, while others evolve and mature. We, the users, are part of this process, and by observing and documenting problems that occur to the developers, we help to make Kubuntu better.

[MoonRise]

Re: For all ye Kubuntu/kde4 wairy

We, the users, are part of this process, and by observing and documenting problems that occur to the developers, we help to make Kubuntu better.

Agreed. At least that is what I hope I'm doing!