For a better Linux

[kbuser]

Hi all,

Recently the french parliament chose kubuntu for their computers after strict criteria which eliminated even a local well-established and very good distribution as Mandriva. This shows that Kubuntu is a fiable and high quality distribution. Some other countries are switching to linux (china, norway, brasil etc) and others will follow. Computer sellers as Dell (after its famous ideastorm) think of responding to the need for linux. Great horizons are opening for linux and I think that Kubuntu will be a good candidate for choice.

While Kubuntu has a strong base and advantages (ubuntu technology and repositories, stable release cycle, customizable desktop, featureful apps etc) it is not well-ranked at distrowatch.com I personally think it has the possibility to be in the top 5 permanently. It has all the backround to do the linux revolution. And the revolution for me is the orientation to the simplicity, reality and modernity.

Here are some of my ideas about a modern linux:

-Limitation of use of the commandline. I know it is a powerful and addictive tool, but you dont progress in modernity with this. We must find solutions to respond to problems which will occur with its limitation (or even elimination). I am thinking of gui-only-applications, a gui-diagnostic tool with pre-registered commands etc

-An really friendly package manager. I am thinking of adept_installer (not adept_manager) with a bigger database.

-A protocol of communication and conduct. imagine this case: a newbie has just installed the distro and asks for a program. He's given this answer: "Add this repository, do apt-get update and then apt-get install program"
Where and how must he add the repository? Where must he do apt-get update? and why use a console while there is a gui-application? We must not forget that he is a newbie.

-A short documentation. I think that the handbooks must be presented shortened to the strictly essentials and to a really understandable language.

-I think that the swap partition is supeflous and sometimes annoying. Imagine this case: the average john dow wants a partition for windows, a second for the system /, a third for /home, a fourth for swap and a fifth for another reason (backup, encrypted etc) He has to create an extended partition and is not familiar with terms like extended, logical, container etc
The swap could be a file in the system. Windows and Freespire have already done it.

-A market-oriented mindset even if the distro doesnt make profits. If you do something without having in mind a customer whom you must satisfy, you will do something that you THINK it is good and not something that is good. The developers must test their apps to totally newbies so that they are sure the user understands the function of buttons and the sense of terms and the application is intuitive enough so that the user be able to work easily (and ideally without the use of a manual). Those who write documentation or give support must make sure that their explainations are clear, not boring and adapted to the level of the user. They must imagine themselfs in the user's place.

-Some more apps must be added. I am thinking of Firefox, thunderbird, a good notetaker, a personal finance program, a firewall etc. So a good cd-space strategy is needed.

Please, post your comments and your ideas about how to ameliorate our distribution.

[kubicle]

Re: For a better Linux

While Kubuntu has a strong base and advantages (ubuntu technology and repositories, stable release cycle, customizable desktop, featureful apps etc) it is not well-ranked at distrowatch.com I personally think it has the possibility to be in the top 5 permanently.

Distrowatch rankings don't really mean anything, the things that matter are the news you read of organizations adopting linux (or kubuntu), like the french parliament you mentioned. Also, distributions come and go, so looking at how distributions fare against each other is not as important as the progress of open source in general, this includes other linux distributions (and other OSS projects)

-Limitation of use of the commandline. I know it is a powerful and addictive tool, but you dont progress in modernity with this. We must find solutions to respond to problems which will occur with its limitation (or even elimination). I am thinking of gui-only-applications, a gui-diagnostic tool with pre-registered commands etc

Sometimes a good old tool is better than a bagfull of 'modern' tools. I agree that there should be more GUI tools (for the tasks that require the use of the command line), but GUIs can never compete with the versatility of the command line.

-An really friendly package manager. I am thinking of adept_installer (not adept_manager) with a bigger database.

Adept_installer is a fairly good tool for new users, but of course it can be improved (and I think it has improved)...there are also other package installation projects underway (like SMART)

-A protocol of communication and conduct. imagine this case: a newbie has just installed the distro and asks for a program. He's given this answer: "Add this repository, do apt-get update and then apt-get install program"
Where and how must he add the repository? Where must he do apt-get update? and why use a console while there is a gui-application? We must not forget that he is a newbie.

Describing the use of GUI tools is a task for the documentation (And the documentation explains them quite well, if one takes the time to read them). On forums answering questions it's a lot quicker to describe a CLI route to solving the problem, which allows answering more questions in the same time frame...the CLI is also independent of the desktop environment used (KDE, Gnome, Xfce etc.) so the CLI answer are more universal.

Of course, if one has the time to explain the the GUI route as well, then everyone can be happy

-A short documentation. I think that the handbooks must be presented shortened to the strictly essentials and to a really understandable language.

There is always room to improve the documentation, and this is something almost everyone could participate in...in my opinion the Desktop Guide, and Feisty's 'System documentation' are quite readable and to the point, but like I said, always room for improvement.

-I think that the swap partition is supeflous and sometimes annoying. Imagine this case: the average john dow wants a partition for windows, a second for the system /, a third for /home, a fourth for swap and a fifth for another reason (backup, encrypted etc) He has to create an extended partition and is not familiar with terms like extended, logical, container etc
The swap could be a file in the system. Windows and Freespire have already done it.

You can have swap files in kubuntu, too, if you like. However, swap partitions have a number of advantages ower swap files (performance and the fact you can use one swap partition for multiple linux installations on the same machine are two of them). I don't think we should abandon better technology for something that is easier to grasp (for win converts), but that is just my opinion.

The installers could of course explain the partitioning process and the terminology better, for those that aren't familiar with partitioning.

-A market-oriented mindset even if the distro doesnt make profits. If you do something without having in mind a customer whom you must satisfy, you will do something that you THINK it is good and not something that is good. The developers must test their apps to totally newbies so that they are sure the user understands the function of buttons and the sense of terms and the application is intuitive enough so that the user be able to work easily (and ideally without the use of a manual). Those who write documentation or give support must make sure that their explainations are clear, not boring and adapted to the level of the user. They must imagine themselfs in the user's place.

I think (k)ubuntu is quite market-oriented among linux distros, even a bit too much to my liking. But that once again, is just my opinion. :P

-Some more apps must be added. I am thinking of Firefox, thunderbird, a good notetaker, a personal finance program, a firewall etc. So a good cd-space strategy is needed.

The default install applications should be reviewed from time to time, but I think the policy of one application per task is a good way to slim down the CD (after all, if you want something different it's easily installable, there is no reason to force multiple applications for everyone...that is easily seen as bloating. And I really can't see firefox or thunderbird replacing konqueror or kmail/kontact as defaults.

Basket (as a notetaker) and guarddog (as firewall) are things I could understand as a part of the default installation (even if the default installation doesn't require a firewall, it's relatively easy to install something that would require a firewall )

Of course there is only so much that can fit a cd, and I kind of think the default installation shouldn't include 'as much as possible'. There already are complaints that the default installation is 'too much'. People like to choose what they have on their machines (and as long as additional software can easily be installed from the repos, I don't see a problem with it)

[kbuser]

Re: For a better Linux

Hi, kubicle and thanks for giving your point of view. I agree with most of what you say. They are correct. The question though for me is not whether something is correct but whether it is usable. Home users dont like it (linux). Linux users are at about 5% while Windows users more than 90%. I know there are easy answers. I read them a million of times in linux forums. Always linux is perfect and windows users are lazy.

I prefere to see the reality face to face and have a global vision of the problem. There are more than 15 years that linux exists and thousands of people are working on this project. Logically it should be the most popular OS today. Why isnt it?

Many reasons including the human laziness (of users). But one reason is that linux isnt as friendly as we think it is.
I adopt the point of view which accepts the people as they are (with their laziness, their lack of time, the average IQ etc) and prefere to see how to adapt linux to them and not them to linux.

I personnally want a linux for all the people and I will work to that direction even indepentently of a distribution (if needed)

[eriefisher]

Re: For a better Linux

The biggest hurdle, I think, is not the OS but the computer. When Joe user buys new computer it will more than likely be "preloaded" with Windows. Most people do not know that there is a difference. They will use their computer until there is a problem and then pay someone to fix it. For most users, the only thing a computer will be used for is web surfing, email, the odd letter or document, mutimedia and games. They have no interest in how or why it works only that it does. If manufacturers preload Linux, document and support it, they will come.

[javierrivera]

Re: For a better Linux

Home users dont like it (linux).

Sure?. How do you know it?. Have you make a research?.

The fact that most home users doesn't use linux doesn't mean that they don't like it.

Linux users are at about 5% while Windows users more than 90%. I know there are easy answers. I read them a million of times in linux forums. Always linux is perfect and windows users are lazy.

Oh no. Another linux savior who has the answer to make Linux the number one home computer OS. Again the same old facts. Again the completely lack of understanding about markets, and OS ecosystems. Again the same lack of understanding that home users don't care about OS.

I prefere to see the reality face to face and have a global vision of the problem. There are more than 15 years that linux exists and thousands of people are working on this project. Logically it should be the most popular OS today. Why isnt it?

I can't see any logic there.

Maybe it's time for some reality checks:

- People working on windows (not only the OS, but apps, drivers, hardware support, seling, publicity, user support, ... ) is vastly superior to people working on linux.
- People working on linux is mostly devoted to the server side of the OS.
- Popularity has not any direct relationship to quality or number of people involved in a project.
- Linux is not done to kill Windows.
- You are not saying nothing new, and I'm wasting my time answering this.

I personnally want a linux for all the people and I will work to that direction even indepentently of a distribution (if needed)

I see, you want to direct the direction of other works.

Well, it's quite easy. Shuttleworth is able to do it.
Put the money on the table and start hiring.

Javier.

[kbuser]

Re: For a better Linux

I see, you want to direct the direction of other works.

Well, it's quite easy. Shuttleworth is able to do it.
Put the money on the table and start hiring.

Javier.

You must be ashamed of your words. You tell us that only with money we can change things. You don't recognize the efforts and passion of thousands of people who have been working without get paid. and changed things. Shuttleworth's contribution is huge but you forget that he based his distribution on already existing works, that there is a universe (community) repository, and that thousands of other people contribute worldwide and are not in his hired team.

what's your contribution in this thread? I made some proposals that may not be the best ones but we could have a cool discussion. Why this aggressive tone against someone who loves linux and just cares about it?

PS And if I put the money on the table, I will hire people who are able to collaborate.

[javierrivera]

Re: For a better Linux

You must be ashamed of your words. You tell us that only with money we can change things.

No. I did tell you that if you want to set the direction of another people work, you should pay them.

You don't recognize the efforts and passion of thousands of people who have been working without get paid. and changed things.

That's plain stupid. I never ever said that.

Truly I even recognize the useless efforts that you are putting on this. This is why I'm wasting my time answering you.

But coming to a project that's all about "Linux for human beings" saying that linux needs to be user friendly as a new thing. And supporting stupid ideas like that making linux more user friendly than windows will make it beat windows desktop user share...

what's your contribution in this thread? I made some proposals that may not be the best ones but we could have a cool discussion. Why this aggressive tone against someone who loves linux and just cares about it?

You make some obvious and old proposals that have been beat to dead a thousand of times. Then you give some dubious conclusions that are based on make-on-the-moment facts (like home users don't like linux). And add some false remarks about linux users that are really offensive to the people that spend their time trying to help other people. How do you dare to assume what we think, or attack us a collective?.

But, seeing that you are probably a nice guy, that is able to expend some time to help the community, all this aggressive tone means:

- "Please, take the time to do some reading of thousands of post about this topic".
- "Please, if you have something new to give us on philosophy, please do it, but don't repeat the same topical ideas again"
- "Please, don't believe that your goals about revolution are the community goals, we are here for a lot of reasons, and revolution is just one".

Note that I don't answer to your initial proposal (I don't agree with most of them, but hey this is all about diversity), but to your boring, out-of-focus, and plain false answer to cubicle.

Well... and I love to flame over the net ;P.

Javier.

[kbuser]

Re: For a better Linux

Javierriviera, ok no hard feelings; that takes nowhere. I see you're a nice guy too, since you help people and they give you kudos.

Well, some people from other sites have joined (my) project and enriched it with their wonderful ideas. So it became more attractive and had to post in linuxforums as well, for more exposure.

http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/cla...-platform.html

If you (and everyone) want to participate, there is place for all the people.

For the present you can write at g.ivannov AT free DOT fr and decide for the future of this project.

I hope that kubuntu will be chosen to be supported (xubuntu has been proposed as well)

[javierrivera]

Re: For a better Linux

So this kudos thing is finally useful for something?

Anyway my post/kudos rate is quite bad.

I understand that you want to start a new distro. It's a hard task, but good luck.

I personally have no interest in a distro without command line tools. BTW I think that this will not be workable as most linux GUI apps are just front-ends to command line tools... anyway, keep us informed. Maybe I'm missing the next linux revolution .

Javier.

[kbuser]

Re: For a better Linux

There are already a lot of distros out there; I sincerely dont want to add another one, but I dont see how I can do otherwise.

I have been exasperated a lot of times. Searching driver for my printer, not buying the camera i wanted because not compatible, a friend's ADSL modem doesnt work, the skype linux version without video feature etc. All that situation because with such a low percentage of home linux users nobody cares about us.

If this percentage gets a little higher, things will dramatically change. What could help to that? Linux preinstalled computers, more advertisement, an extremely easy distro,..? Well all of these things and even more.

So I have thought of an extremely easy distro just for the migration. You love the commandline but Joe user doesnt. Dont you care about Joe user? Well the hardware manufacturer doesnt care about you, because Joe user is his customer. So you stay alone with your problems and spend hours and even days to solve them while with a more popular OS you would be in a more comfortable situation.

The terminal exist even in Windows which means it is necessary in some cases. My point of view is that the user should have the choice of not using it and use graphical tools instead with the same or similar functions. For example the tool "Run Command" with pre-registered commands (and their explanation) and probably even more functions.

That was just an example of changes that would help the newcomer. I am persuaded that more and more facility-oriented changes will appear with the time. So it is not about a revolution but about a evolution. The question is: why not help things go faster?

[javierrivera]

Re: For a better Linux

If this percentage gets a little higher, things will dramatically change. What could help to that? Linux preinstalled computers, more advertisement, an extremely easy distro,..? Well all of these things and even more.

We have linux preinstalled in computers. But like most people on the streets dont't buy it, you can only buy it on the net.

Advertisement... well what are you going to advertise?, the same thing as OSX?. Expect similar results.

An extremely easy distro?. How easy?. Will it run my all-new wifi card?. Can I use photoshop? Can I play games?.

Linux is now easier to use than windows. At least, in my work, I get more adaptation problems from people going from XP to Vista than from XP to Linux (both are few). Even when it's a mostly windows network.

We have move people from Windows + OpenOffice + Cobol app to Linux + Openoffice + Cobol app with a training time of about 5 minutes (yeah, click here). But when we move all the people from MS Office to OpenOffice around 2000... well that was a real nightmare. If the saving weren't so massive that the management was completely convinced to do it...

Anyway, the picture that I wan't to tell you is that the OS doesn't matter for a final user. Come on, most of them doesn't understand the differences between Windows and Office. It's all about cool programs and hardware to them.

I also believe that Linux is easier to manage than Windows. But of course, if a person has years of Windows experience, it'll be easier to them to solve a windows than a linux problem. And the street is full of windows shops.

So I have thought of an extremely easy distro just for the migration. You love the commandline but Joe user doesnt. Dont you care about Joe user?

Of course I do. I'm on this forums .
BTW, command line is one of the greatest tools to help someone over the net or the telephone. It's way easier to follow command line guidelines that to explain clicking procedures.

For example the tool "Run Command" with pre-registered commands (and their explanation) and probably even more functions.

Distros like Ubuntu, Mandriva or Suse aim for this. They're aiming for this since 10 years ago.
And they are pretty close. Specially the last two.

That was just an example of changes that would help the newcomer. I am persuaded that more and more facility-oriented changes will appear with the time. So it is not about a revolution but about a evolution. The question is: why not help things go faster?

Then, instead of starting another distro, try to help wine. Or some other key project that helps to close what is really keeping people in Windows. One man will be much more useful there, IMHO.

And of course, you'll need loads of time and work.

Javier.

[gregb49]

Re: For a better Linux

Hi KBuser

Here are some of my ideas about a modern linux:

I've been in the business of supporting local computer users for the last 9 years. As a result I agree with much of what you say.

Anyway, the picture that I wan't to tell you is that the OS doesn't matter for a final user. Come on, most of them doesn't understand the differences between Windows and Office. It's all about cool programs and hardware to them

Absolutely. They just want something that works which doesn't get continually trashed by malware. Having used Linux distros for a few years now, very much as a user, I feel that the distros are getting close to achieving what you suggest. Don't be put off by negative comments: this is an important debate, IMO. Soon users will switch on a system and be unaware of the operating system, apart from the fact that it is fast, feature rich, does what they want and doesn't get trashed by malware. I look forward to that day. Greg

[kbuser]

Re: For a better Linux

Hi, gregb49

The second quote in your post is not mine but I agree. I dont give a dime for negative comments; they just give me the chance to develop my thoughts, principally to the other readers. Thank you for your encouragement.

[gregb49]

Re: For a better Linux

The second quote in your post is not mine but I agree.

Oops, sorry about that. I should be more careful. Greg

[dibl]

Re: For a better Linux

the OS doesn't matter for a final user. Come on, most of them doesn't understand the differences between Windows and Office. It's all about cool programs and hardware to them.

Javier is more right than wrong, IMHO. Give 'em a PC that runs their apps fast - that's how you get them interested.

It also occurs to me that "the office" situation is one thing, and "at home" is another, for many users of recent systems. So maybe we need to show great solutions to both "Outlook" style collaboration, and "PhotoShop" as well. It's a tall expectation ...