Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

[Bongo5HH]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I've found getting Kubuntu installed from scratch is a fast and easy thing. Answer 6 questions hit Enter and wait while the thing installs... reboot and you're done.

HOWEVER, getting Kubuntu to be USEFUL is entirely different topic. Kubuntu is MUCH easier to install than XP is (from my experience).

BUT getting XP to be useful is MUCH easier (and quicker) than Kubuntu.

Now you tell me which is more important?

With Windows, any drivers I'm missing can be found by going to the hardware vendor's website - even though other than Video and Sound I've never HAD (read "needed" to get to work) to install drivers other than what comes from MS.

With Linux ( in general) I have to scour the net for information on weird command line stuff, third party tools that half work, and get flamed for my efforts.

Is it really SO hard for the expert team who build Kubuntu but who can't put non-free stuff in the OS to put together a utility which DOES install this stuff properly on their OS?

They wouldn't be distributing it, and the linux zealot's sensiblities wouldn't be offended. The best part is, the struggling Windows to Linux convert would be able to get up and running. Then I could at the pace my schedule allows learn how to do things in Linux so I wouldn't be stuck.

It's not that Linux isn't a fantastic OS - clearly it is. It's not that Kubuntu is not valueable - clearly it is. It's just that there seems to be this inside group that knows everything and the rest of us have to beg to find tid bits about it.

ALL THIS BEING SAID, I have not run into much trouble on this board. People here have been the most pleasant of all the Linux users I've had contact with.

Even with all the niceness here, I still can't get my wireless card to work... I'm exhausted with trying to figure simple things out.

I can't turn my touch pad off (easily)

And I can't get R&W access to a USB hard drive I created with Windows.

These are just three of the things I have left to figure out... there are 3 months worth of other things which I have struggled through.

Sorry for the rant - this IS Kubuntu related. If the team at Kubuntu solved this issue wouldn't it be amazing for the new user? That truly would be "Kutting Edge" hehe

Kev

[shadowfx78]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

sheesh if you have a problem with linux dont use it. I love my kubuntu and all my hardware was detected properly. If you want a computer that has no problems get one purpose built for use with a certain linux distrobution.

Why bash a very well constructed operating system, simply because it didnt work just the way you wanted it too. if you want that go crawling back to windows, and forever be raped by microsoft. When you struggle to figure something out you learn how to do it and possibly can help others with their problems thats what the linux community is all about helping one another get the best of their operating systems.

[Bongo5HH]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

sheesh if you have a problem with linux dont use it.  I love my kubuntu and all my hardware was detected properly.  If you want a computer that has no problems get one purpose built for use with a certain linux distrobution.

Why bash a very well constructed operating system, simply because it didnt work just the way you wanted it too.  if you want that go crawling back to windows, and forever be raped by microsoft.  When you struggle to figure something out you learn how to do it and possibly can help others with their problems thats what the linux community is all about helping one another get the best of their operating systems.

This is the typical response you get when you dare bring up the short-comings of Linux.

How is this helpful?

If the statement of learning to help others is true, how come you haven't offered help to those here who need it? I'm glad it works for you. Really I am. However, you can look at the forums and see it's not the case for everyone.

So instead of "Gee it works for me, you shouldn't use it.. or maybe you should have a purpose built OS if you really want one that works." Why not say something along the lines of "Ya I struggled too. Here's what I learned... or ya that's a good idea. Since I've learned how to make things work maybe I could work with you to make a document that helps the New Guy able to get basic things working. Want to help?"

[Fintan]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

@pendragon.
I wholeheartedly agree. With everything you have said.

Albight i might say that a few points of this thread have merit, if said correctly..

I still have problems with the edgy grub. and no one has come up with a serious solution.
Heh? What of it. i have drapper to work with and edgy to play the edge with. That what this release is for, going to the edge and trying out new stuff.

And sure some hardware just is to exotic.

These guys do a fine job trying to stay on top of the HW question and i take my hat off to them.

Ever try vista?
It won't even get close to working on a "normal" joes machine much less install with all the drivers, etc. No, i won't go and buy a mac for $700, why not a sgc for $10000. There is no point in that.
so yes lets stop this jibberisch and go back to real topics, that help others.

Cheers to all and have fun
F

[jdunn]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I'm quite happy with Edgy. It installed flawlessly for me. Of course, I know that my hardware is very linux-friendly...as I intended it to be. You have to understand that the over-all hardware problem is not the fault of Linux. Many hardware developers design drivers for M$ Windows and don't give a thought to making linux drivers or disclosing hardware specs to the public. In this case, linux developers have to reverse engineer the hardware to develop drivers for linux. They may have to hookup a protocol analyzer and crack open the case to see what vender components are used inside your printer, wireless router, or whatever you're using. This can take alot of time, even for someone who does it professionally...It involves guesswork. If lucky, developers can modify existing drivers to work on a previously unsupported piece of hardware...but, I would imagine drivers are sometimes built from scratch (also time consuming). I'm sorry if (K)ubuntu does not work for you. You may try one of the other distros and if that doesn't work, you can always go back to Windows.

[randcoop]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I'll vote with Edgy Kubuntu as well. Perhaps the best comments here, IMHO, are from aysiu, who pointed out that the original poster did not say anything specific, did not ask a question that could be answered, and did not make any constructive criticism.

Linux has problems with wireless. Absolutely. Linux has problems with hardware recognition. Absolutely.

For those of us who have been using Linux for many years, those comments are empty. For anyone with a bit of knowledge about drivers and Microsoft's hold on the world of hardware, such comments wouldn't even be made. What we know is that Linux in general and even (K)Ubuntu in particular has made huge strides with regard to these issues.

The recent upgrades that I did on two different IBM/Lenovo laptops went quite well indeed. And the end users are thrilled with the new version. At the same time, I've got users who are still happily using Dapper and who don't want to take any chances. I've also got a user who wants me to change them back to Kubuntu from Windows XP after three months with that OS.

So I salute the (K)Ubuntu team, suggest that people who are dissatisfied with Edgy try Dapper, and that people who are dissatisfided with Linux try Windows or Macintosh.

[Bongo5HH]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

randcoop

What do you suggest for people who REALLY want to use Linux, but are finding it hard to get it working?

Going to Dapper solves nothing for ME, as the same issues I had there are here. WiFi, turning hardware such as the Touchpad off, and getting proper access to drives created in Windows (FAT32, and even a Kubuntu install on an external HDD).

I've just discovered after my second install of Edgy (first was upgrade that went flawlessly... of course I couldn't leave well enough alone DOH!) and now I can't seem to find any of the programs I use via Adept (I've enabled Universe and Multiverse) Programs are Audacity, Blender, Hydrogen, aMSN.

There is MUCH that I love about Kubuntu.

Vista is a MS killer if you ask me.. not sure how their customers can afford to move to that OS but that's a dif topic.

Anyway, my point is the same as every new user of Linux makes. We know all you "old timers" know everything and that our concerns are "empty" to you. However, Linux can not become main stream until these concerns are answered.

SOMEONE somewhere needs to take the bull by the horns and get this stuff dealt with. Until then those who know how to get it working can sit around feeling superior to those who are trapped in MS land - because they actually need their computers to do something.

The fact that hardware vendors don't support Linux is an issue - however, I see that it's POSSIBLE to get WiFi working in Kubuntu. I hear long winded tails of how MY WiFi card works.. however, finding an explanation of HOW to get it to work, written in ENGLISH, that doesn't require me to be a Linux expert is seemingly impossible.

BCM 43XX in case you're wondering.

It's been a "ranty" day for me... sorry. Frustrated. Not your fault.

Kev

[Bongo5HH]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Ah I just noticed something.

No matter how many times I enable a rep in Adept it doesn't actually get enabled. Strange...

I just did it manually with the list and am installing Automatix 2. Hopefully that will help.

Kev

[n7vrz]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

This will be my only reply to silver-arrow.
Let's get him a completely new system. Give him a Windows (I know that's a bad word here) CD. Take away ALL of the driver disks that came with his equipment. Wireless, lan, chipset, EVERYTHING!!
Now let's see how fast he complains to the Windows forums about 'lack of hardware support'.

[lyall]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team


remember the old days of DOS and Unix you do not have windows to help you around on the pc or mainframe.
People had to find ways to get their work done and slow it was. We thought it was great.
Try doing accounting by hand and have thirty plus pages to check and balance.

Today we can not wait for any thing, we think we should have it 5 days ago.
If more people helped like we did years ago and stop thinking we need it now.

As for hardware we can search for the hardware that works with Linux and buy it. The other manufacters will start writing code for their product to work on Linux to sell it to us.

You ALL have a GREAT life and think before you jump.

[lingenfr]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

The fact that hardware vendors don't support Linux is an issue - however, I see that it's POSSIBLE to get WiFi working in Kubuntu. I hear long winded tails of how MY WiFi card works.. however, finding an explanation of HOW to get it to work, written in ENGLISH, that doesn't require me to be a Linux expert is seemingly impossible.

BCM 43XX in case you're wondering.

I just did a Linksys USB 54G adapter with this chipset the other day. It is non-trivial with ndiswrapper, but there are howto's out there that work. I had to do an ifdown/ifup, but then it took off. How do I know to do that, I imagine that I read it along the way in a book or on a forum like this. It can be frustrating, but don't blame the developers. Kubuntu is the best distribution I have used and the support on this forum (and the Ubuntu forum) is a big piece of that. If you want to get your wifi working, search first then start a thread and I will share what I learned.

[javierrivera]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Anyway, my point is the same as every new user of Linux makes. We know all you "old timers" know everything and that our concerns are "empty" to you. However, Linux can not become main stream until these concerns are answered.

Linux is main stream. I'll be very surprised if I find just one person that surfs the web and is not using linux.

Linux is not probably in his desktop, but his packets will travel throught linux routers to hit linux webservers, that were found on a linux search engine.

SOMEONE somewhere needs to take the bull by the horns and get this stuff dealt with. Until then those who know how to get it working can sit around feeling superior to those who are trapped in MS land - because they actually need their computers to do something.

Lots of people, companies, foundations are trying to deal with that stuff. Most of the distros of the world will love to be able to support all the wireless cards in the world out of the box.

The biggest ones are expending lots of money in it.

But it is a huge work. Worse, wireless cards are evolving much faster that anyone, ANY operating system manufacturer can't follow them. Even Microsoft.

Come on, how many times did a wireless card work out of the box on windows. For me, never.

As long as wireless chipset change that fast, and manufacturers don't make linux dirvers, wireless support will be lacking on linux. That's a fact.

No one has enought resources to reverse engineer drivers so fast.

Try to connect it and see if it automagically work.
Try ndiswrapper.

If both fail you are out of luck. It's not about some secret knowledge hidden by us "old timers". It is just a fact of live.

BTW, I do much more on my computers running linux than most people on windows. And I have no problem in running Windows XP in my tablet where linux is unable to cope with the pen and the wireless. I'll prefer to run linux, I have colinux installed to run some programs (specially rsync), and of course I do my real work (the one that pays the computer) on la linux desktop. I do miss proper security, kpdf, kmail, the easiness of package installation, proper command line, and lots of small things, but I have to choose.

Javier.

[Freddan]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Why on earth can someone come here and demand things, you have gotten this distro for free, they even send you cd's free of charge ?!?

Why on earth can someone come here and complain about linux and the shortage of drivers from there hardware supplier? Pls go and complain to them instead and we might get somewhere on that.

Why on earth can someone complain about the lack of gui configuration tools. If every developer find it boring to make that tool, they shouldn't do it. You have gotten this for free and they code and maintain for free. They do this for fun and you haven't paid a single dime!!!

Why does everybody has such a hangup to conquer Microsoft in the big desktop battle, there aren't such a thing. Linux isn't even on the map, Linux doesn't breed Microsoft in the neck, Microsoft don't feel the sting.

I'm sorry for sounding harsh but I'm getting tired of hearing these types of complaint about a free OS made by mostly unpaid people. If you would buy a Mac, there are just certain Mac compatible hardware that will work. This is more or less the same for Linux, we do however have a substantially larger pool of workable hardware to choose from. Check your wireless card before you buy it, do the company behind it support Linux. If they don't, guess what, don't buy!!!   /// Freddan

[Fintan]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Amen and hallalulia! to that.

[GUIGuy]

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Amen and hallalulia! to that.

Well, yes and no... I don think the original post or Freddanś response help the debate. Both only stimulate passions.

Maybe the real issue is that those coming over from MS Windows to Linux are expecting Windows?


regards