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**claydoh** · Nov 07, 2006, 01:27 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Ooookay.......

As this forum is more a Kubuntu user forum, your post may be somewhat misplaced, perhaps Ubuntu/kubunru developers mailing lists would get a more proper response to your comments.

Now to my (as a non-zealot Desktop Linux end user) responses:

As you pointed out, the problems you mention are Linux wide and not specific to my favorite distro. There are very good reasons for this.

A big one is lack of support from the hardware manufacturers in the Linux sphere, which is something we cannot easily overcome.

Another huge factor is that (and I think many people forget this part) aside from a relatively small number of full-time, paid developers spread out over the Linux distribution landscape, all the folks who code, write documentation, create graphics, help out new folks in forums, IRC, and mailing lists, and donate money and services are VOLUNTEERS who mostly do their thing in their spare time.

This is not an excuse by any means, but in part an explanation of sorts. The developers of all the drivers, all the programs, the kernel, the Desktop environments, all basically on their own time, have to in many instances replicate what PC hardware manufacturers, etc have done, quite a lot of it without any help, documentation or anything from those parties. And they have to do it over again when new hardware is released (this seems particularly true of wireless hardware as this is an area of massive growth and change)

As to overall hardware compatibility, see above

But I have this example as a caveat:
I helped a friend reinstall windows on her computer, she got a new hard drive and was essentially starting from scratch. I wanted to show her Linux as she had seen my home system and was curious, but as she used quite a bit of specialized software (she was a research biologist) I popped in the livecd and booted to that, and she was intrigued enough to let me install Kubuntu to her system for fun. After about a half an hour, she was up and running, browsing, printing, playing with Kontact, etc.

Then we went to install Windows. I will say I have not installed Windows on a machine in quite a while, 2 years or more. But the process wasn't too difficult, just time consuming. After getting it booted up, We had to track down all the drivers I had forgotten to find ahead of time (namely the lan driver so we could get online) we finally after literally over 2 1/2 hours got the OS, Office, Symantec, scanner/printer/lan etc installed.

Maybe I was lucky and we both have well supported hardware, I don't know.

Also remember Dapper is LTS (long term support) and there are a good stream of fixes and updates

As to the "hype", well just go to Kubuntu's download page, and notice it mentions:

There are now two versions of Kubuntu! The newest Kubuntu version, 6.10 features the latest technology and is supported for 18 months. However, some users would prefer to continue using Kubuntu 6.06 LTS, which includes long-term support.

Ubuntu's site has a similar statement. The hype must be coming from imho a majority of users who have had good experiences here

**dsquared** · Nov 07, 2006, 11:01 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I have posted before about my problems http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=10360.0
with Edgy - I have still not been able to install EDGY or reinstall DAPPER - I have however been able to install PCLInux (nice distro that just works! but doesn't have very deep forum support) - I have also been able to install Mepis - (another Distro that just works - but it isn't my old Kbuntu!) - Why oh Why can you not deliver a product that is ready for prime time? -
My machine is hardly bleeding edge but can power other Linux and Windows O/S's.
This release looks like it was rushed out the door warts & all. There appears to be no concern for quality control. Those other 2 Distro's just work and are comparible to Kubuntu.
Exhibit 1)
Come on just look at the posts, in this forum listing problem after problem of people just trying to get this release up and running.
Exhibit 2)
Look at the post that is pinned to the start of this group - you can't get the right MD5 checksum . BTW When do you think this hicup might be fixed? What kind of impression does this leave with a first time user? Attention to detail is what leads to success in ths world - - Instead of jumping into the deepend and starting development on Feisty - why not step back and try and address some of the issues that are Irritants in the current product - the benefit of linux coming in so many flavours is that if users don't like one they will jump to another - what ever happened to Sorcer Linux? - The message is adapt/improve/support and you will succeed in the world of Distros

If I wanted patches & service packs I would be waiting for Bill and his Viruses Infections Spyware Trojans & Adware installed

**silver_arrow** · Nov 07, 2006, 11:26 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Claydoh,

You say something there...but this is not the way out of the problem.
To be clearer in my thinking here is what I mean:

I. First the hardware compatibility issue should be taken with the outmost seriousness.
I think the Ubuntu - Kubuntu teams have these two choices:
- Create a group of people especially dedicated to this important issue.
They should be organized in two subgroups:
1. A group gathering the hardware requirements in order to assure the proper implementation of it
2. Another group which takes the role of talking to hardware manufacturers in order to get them collaborate regarding their platform, driver, etc.

II. A second posibility is to initiate a wider initiative on Linux community in order to create a hardware detection layer or framework which will assure the proper detection and install of drivers, etc on the Linux platform.

III. It is not in contradiction of Open Source community spirit to have finally defined a business model.
I think JBoss is an example to follow. Just sell support for your platform in order to get a steady stream of income
This will maintain at least a team of professional developers working full time on the project being paid.

In this respect I think Ubuntu - Kubuntu should be thinking to address this issues in a more intelligent and imaginative way, as such:
- Whoever wants support from the fellow Linux colleagues at free level gets into this forum, but... IT SHOULD BE ANOTHER FORUM IN WHICH MANY OF US WITH EXPERTISE WOULD BE READY TO HELP FOR A REASONABLE FEE.
As owner of this os, Ubuntu, Kubuntu whould also draw a charge from the money paid to a technical expert by a user in need for support. Everybody gains from this business model as you can see.

There is still room for improvement, but what is nedeed is the WILL TO IMPLEMENT IT.
AFTER ALL UBUNTU IS ABOUT COMMUNITY, ISN'T IT?

Another thing which is bugging me is the discrepancy between the sad reality on this forums regarding the hardware compatibility and other related issues and the fact that is said that LTS exists... My overall impression is that the os is so bugy or unable to satisfy a lot of the hardware compatibility requirements that this LTS came out because of that?!#....

You get my point?

The support should be given as part of the platform knowing in good faith that this platform works for most of the hardware / software and of course only the exceptions would trigger the support option. When Linux would come to this?

I think is nedeed there a quality jump and change of mentality combined with more business rigor in order to bring this platform to its potential.

All the best,
Silver Arrow

**aysiu** · Nov 07, 2006, 11:56 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

No flames, but you should at least understand the issues before you criticize...
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

**silver_arrow** · Nov 08, 2006, 01:39 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Aysiu,

Instead pointing me to a carefully done FAQ, you should open your eyes wide and read the content of these forums.
What do you see? Happy users or users in distress?

My posts are oriented not only to a cheap criticism but rather to a call for more realism...
I offered some solutions also, this is named if you are aware Positive Criticism.
Is very polite to say as in this FAQ:

- Install the live cd, if something doesn't work then DON'T INSTALL IT.

IS THAT THE WAY TO ADDRESS THE REAL ISSUES THIS DISTRIBUTION FACES RIGHT NOW?
Please, get out of the dream and see the issues around you... I refer to the Ubuntu - Kubuntu issues.
There are here many users realising that this release was "hurried" to come out of the door just for the PR purposes

By the way, have you worked in a real big IT Consultancy in order to realise what quality processes are employed in order to deliver top notch software?
Instead creating carefully FAQ's will not be better to look what can be done to improve the overall software development process, and stick to a realistic release deadline?

Let me propose a simple release cycle here:
- Release software
- Gather the bugs and other pending issues
- Address the current's release issues
- Release patches
- If achieved stability for the current release then go for the next release

Is that hard to implement? And this is just a simplistic way to put it...

All the best,
Silver Arrow

**kubicle** · Nov 08, 2006, 02:30 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I'd think the reason why aysiu pointed out the faq is that your criticism isn't anything new. It gets tiresome to write up long, articulate and to-the-facts answers to a similar 'criticism' for the 'hundredth' time.

nstead pointing me to a carefully done FAQ, you should open your eyes wide and read the content of these forums.
What do you see? Happy users or users in distress?

That really isn't a good meter, by default people tend to post when they are having problems, rather than when everything is going nicely. For most of us, kubuntu (and even edgy) is working quite well for our needs (and beyond).

If you want a slower release schedule (with more polished releases), you should stick with the LTS releases (like dapper), the in-between releases are sort of test releases where new technology and implementation can be introduced and ironed out.

I for one feel the quick release-cycle of (k)ubuntu is a strong-point, for me atleast. And I've also found out the hardware detection on (k)ubuntu is among the better distros out there.

I'm sure you have good intentions behind your criticism, and some of your points are definitely valid arguments, but saying things like 'you should open your eyes' or 'Please, get out of the dream and see the issues around you' when someone doesn't agree with your arguments isn't the best way to get a point across (at least not to me)

Note: I speak only for myself, and no one else. I'm not a developer (for kubuntu)

**GUIGuy** · Nov 08, 2006, 03:25 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Originally posted by silver_arrow

- Install the live cd, if something doesn't work then DON'T INSTALL IT.

... ahem... did that. LiveCD worked fine. Then I upgraded Dapper. I'm the brown stuff up to my neck. Edgy boots to this 'test pattern' screen and locks up. Cannot get a CLI. Cannot mount the HDDs from the liveCD. Thankfully I had a copy of Knoppix. It saved the day in so far that I am able to back a few files I needed. (Pity there's no 'rollback' option').

But back to the topic at hand. In respect of my madness today ("downgrading dapper to edgy

) I accept all the responsibility, as should anyone who dives into untested waters. It was an incredibly stupid act on my part given dapper was working well.

However, in a general sense I concur with the sentiments of the first post in this thread.

Enough rants- I have files to salvage

regards

The GUIGuy
+++++++++
I am probably too stupid to be using Linux.

**lingenfr** · Nov 08, 2006, 08:51 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

That's right, I agree, while we are at it, lets slash the teams salaries! Oh yeah, that's right, kubuntu, ubuntu, edubuntu, and xubuntu are all gifts to the rest of us uneducated non-programmers and even the grammatically challenged like green lantern, silver surfer, whatever. It is natural to be frustrated when your computer is messing up. Unfortunately, it is typically the whining ACs (yes, from office, not slashdot) who 1) NEVER, paypal a few bucks to the programming teams, 2) NEVER visit the forum unless it is to gripe or have their questions answered, and 3) run around bragging to their friends about what leet haxors they are running linux.

Sorry to be a chapped arse, but I have done enough programming to have an appreciation for the time that these VOLUNTEERS likely contribute so the rest of us can be cheap, ungrateful, and self-righteous in our indignation when we have a problem.

pierce-arrow, if you will post your address, I will be glad to send you my other linux distribution CDs for you to try out. As a bonus, I will also be glad to send you a few magazine subscriptions, a few pizzas and maybe a visit from some of those nice young men with the black pants, white shirts and bicycles who really want to change your life.

Please everyone, let this pinhead go back to shouting at passing cars and lets get back to constructively assisting each other with making the most out of our FREE operating system.

**aysiu** · Nov 08, 2006, 09:56 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I'm sorry, but I re-read your original post, and I didn't see any constructive criticism in there.

Do you really believe developers have up their sleeves support for all available hardware but just decided, "Hey, let's not implement this support even though we have it"? You can't just demand, "Hey, get this to work on all hardware." That's not constructive criticism any more than it is constructive for a coach "strategizing" a win to say, "Okay, team. You know how we've got to win? By beating the other team and not messing up!"

Yeah, nice strategy there. Very constructive.

Read the FAQ next time instead of balking at the link. It was written precisely because your criticism is not constructive and not original. All of your points are addressed there.

**silver_arrow** · Nov 08, 2006, 11:30 PM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Hi,

Let's make something clear from very beginning:
- My purpose is to point out that things could have been done better.

What really disapoints me is the continuous configuration hell any Linux distribution is putting an user thru.
I clearly said that I appreciate their work and I will continue to monitor this distribution since I am interested about it
But... we have to see also the drawbacks of their work. Their work could have been done in a better way.

We all understand that not everything can be covered at once by a release, but at least if a release has a series of issues these should be addressed first in order to stabilize that release. What sense does make to go for a next release and to BRING A BRAND NEW IDEA when the code base on which is based the next release has clearly issues still to be addressed. It is exactly this kind of situation which I want THEM to see or YOU to see it.

It doesn't take too much time to see the efect of such development strategy...just look into this forum and you'll clarify yourself right away.
Let me give you an example, just today happened:

I started Ubuntu Edgy's install program. I followed all steps quite well and fast.
When I came to partitioning It was there previously a partition in my external USB HD of type EXT3.
I chosed this partition to install the os and I checked the Format option.

For some reason I got an error message saying that it can't proceed with the action since the kernel can't read the partition. I was advised to unmount and restart the process. Ok, I've done that using the installer ad also I DELETED the partition.

I restarted the partitioning process, by creating a new EXT3 partition and I clicked on Format also.
Well... I got the same message as described above. Moreover I stoped the installer and I went to GPART.
I did it all over again by deleting the partition and using not only EXT3 but I also tried other partion types. NO WAY, IT DIDN'T WORKED, WHATEVER I DID.

I installed before countless, other distributions and I passed this step succesfully.
I leave this particular situation to your judgement and freedom of speech...

I understand that you support them in their work, but this is not the correct approach when openly we should discuss such matters. The fact their work is under criticism is for their own benefit, PLEASE SEE IT THIS WAY.
On the other hand I don't understand this attiude as AYSIU has, in insisting a FAQ has ADDRESSED MY CONCERNS.
How come? My concerns, other users concerns will be addressed not by reading a well crafted FAQ but by solving the issues which we are confronted with and the way to do this is to start using a professional approach to software development by these teams.

On that side of changing my life as Lingenfr points out in his post, I think he's right with one thing:
- Yes, my life was changed since by installing K(U)buntu I must frustrate myself for hours and days to make work a basic thing as partitioning a HD, or having a Wireless connection, etc.

All the best,
Silver Arrow

**terje1311** · Nov 09, 2006, 07:17 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Just a short note on the diversity of this issue. I have had 6-7 experiences just lately where Windows XP wouldn't install hardware - even when using the provided XP install CD - that I just plugged into Kubuntu and it worked. My experience is that this holds true especially for older hardware. And it is such a nice change not having to run all over the internet looking for proprietary (often obsolete and non-existing) drivers to make the prehistoric scanner or printer or sound card work, which I have to do every time I install XP on a friend's old PC.

Another refreshing thing with K/Ubuntu is that when I do have install problems - Google is my friend, and somewhere out there someone has usually made a fix that i can apply. Thanx a million to all of you!

That said, I still have to start my Acer 5040 twice to make the wireless card work

**Tynach** · Nov 09, 2006, 09:25 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Amusing. Truly amusing.

The only REALL problem I'm having with Kubuntu/Linux is that I keep installing something stupid, like a new theme from KDE-LOOK, and suddenly Kicker doesn't work. I find out I didn't have KBFX installed, and that caused the theme instalation major problems. Almost all the problems I had were my fault.

Kubuntu is the first distro/OS that auto-detected ALL my hardware correctly from the start. Not even Windows could do that. The problem I had with hardware was installing the graphics driver, because the GUI messed it up, but simply editing the xorg.conf file made all the difference.

Another issue is that a lot of computer illiterate people are starting to use Linux because we brag it's "Ease of use." Face it, Linux is easy to use, but you need to understand it's terminology. My dad didn't know what an X Server was, so when he tried out Debian, he told it to install a desktop environment, but he didn't want to make his computer a server, so he told it not to install the "Sound Server," the "X server," and any other "Server." This resulted in an entirely well made and sleek CLI based opperating system, instead of an entirely well made and sleek GUI based opperating system. When I told him what he did wrong, he didn't think I could be right about what I meant by servers was different from the Windows form of the word, meaning a computer that holds information for a network.

**jrsoit** · Nov 09, 2006, 10:30 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

That being said, I do not mean to offend anyone but I hope you see my point. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't post something like this in a user help forum, this should be a post to developers, not everyday users. I would suggest not starting a post like this without expecting a flame war. And if it truely bothers you that much go to a diff. distro Linux is about choice, choose differently next time or go back to windows.

**Pendragon** · Nov 09, 2006, 11:50 AM

Re: Stop the Hype and Get Real -- To K(U)buntu Team

I think the poster above raises the valid point, we do brag about it's 'Ease of Use' and that's just it, Linux is easy to use just like XP is easy to use and GEM was easy to use, but nowhere do we say Linux is easy to install.

To the trained person any operating system is easy to install, to the untrained person in the street any operating system would be a nightmare the first time they installed it. I've installed many operating systems over the years, from CP/M, DOS, OS2/Warp (and if you think Linux is hard just try OS2/Warp), GEM, Windows (all versions including servers) and of course Linux in various flavours.

All the above required some learning time, some more than others but that is what life is all about learning new things.

So far Mandriva 2006/2007 and Kubuntu 6.06/6.10 are by far the easiest to install by a long way. There are problems with the distro, just like there are problems with XP (and now Vista), but we as humans have the knowledge to overcome these problems and get a working system.

If anyone had said to me in my teens that 45 years later I would be using a computer to talk to anyone in the world in real time, play music from bits of round plastic, play games that look almost like the real world and write silly bits of text like this, I would have thought either they were drunk, daft, or from another planet.

So lets just enjoy the fruits of the labours of the multitude of programmers and others and thank them wholeheartedly for their sterling work, and if you don't like what they do then get off your backside learn to program and put it right as you see the world.

My thanks to everyone who contributed to Madriva and Kubuntu, regards, P.

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