Gnome vs. Cinnamon vs. KDE

[Don B. Cilly]

Still playing around with virtual machines...

... and being even more disappointed than I expected by the latest Ubuntu, I decided, following hints from there, to give Mint 19 Cinnamon a try.
I stand by my motorcycle simile, if Kubuntu 18 is the Ducati 916, Ubuntu 19 is the little scooter, Mint 19 Cinnamon is... a KTM Duke 125 at best.
(For those like WWDERW who don't like motorcycles, obviously googling the terms and looking at the images will give you a good idea).

Now, Cinnamon looks to me like an attempt to "KDEize" Gnome. A half-hearted one at best, but in the right direction.
As opposed to U19, where the installed apps ranged from pathetic to unusable, on M19 the apps are pretty solid (even though a bit scrimpy) and installing new ones actually worked - whereas on U19 almost none of the ones I tried did.
It has nemo as file manager as default - instead of that horrid boiled-cabbage version of Nautilus U19 has.
Whereas on U19 I had to install obvious things like curl and inxi, M19 had them already.

The visual/usability aspect, though slightly better that the U19 refried Gnome, is still so many light-years away from KDE that... well, I don't know.
One might say, Cinnamon is streamlined, it's almost, but not quite, vaguely in the KDE direction...
Except, look:



The "cinnamon" process is always between 22% and 30%. Whereas the "gnome-shell" one is usually around 5%.
Now, on my host, the "plasmashell" one is usually well below 1%. OK, the VM only uses 2 of my 4 cores.
Still.
- So much for KDE bein a resource hog.
- So much for Cinnamon being "light".

More to come, I guess. I've only used it for a couple of hours or so.

[WWDERW]

(For those like WWDERW who don't like motorcycles, obviously googling the terms and looking at the images will give you a good idea).

I didn't say that I didn't like motorcycles, I said I wasn't much of a motorcycle person, thus I don't know the differences of a lot of them. I actually do, from an aesthetics perspective, like some of the old Indian bikes. But because I'm not a true motorcycle person, my knowledge of bikes is limited. I do know enough that just liking the aesthetics of something, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good, so while I may like the aesthetics of an old Indian bike, doesn't mean that it was ever a good bike otherwise.

As opposed to U19, where the installed apps ranged from pathetic to unusable, on M19 the apps are pretty solid (even though a bit scrimpy) and installing new ones actually worked - whereas on U19 almost none of the ones I tried did.
It has nemo as file manager as default - instead of that horrid boiled-cabbage version of Nautilus U19 has.

I rarely go through the repos when installing apps. I prefer portable apps (either appimages or binary archives), so that actually works around that, and puts them on a pretty even playing field. Now something like Bleachbit and Virtualbox, I'll go through the repos, but something like GIMP, Inkscape, Blender etc, it's all portable.

Virtualbox and VLC both have quirks when trying to go in to fullscreen mode. They don't want to stay on the monitor (I'm using a 3 monitor setup) that I want them on using KDE. Mint, that doesn't happen.

I used to be a fan of Nautilus (back in the Fedora 22 days), but to me, it's not the same. Nemo isn't bad, but when running through the terminal, it actually takes longer to clear out on the terminal after closing Nemo. Dolphin it's instantaneous. And I noticed that using GUI apps through the terminal on GTK based DEs, it tends to take longer to clear out of the terminal then on KDE when one has cleared out the app's GUI. Even GTK apps (Bleachbit) run through the terminal (not running the GUI, I scripted Bleachbit due to it not wanting to run in GUI form on Kubuntu after so many uses before a restart) it clears out quickly. I like that since I don't tend to like to have tabs running in my terminals, I just use one tab at a time.

Whereas on U19 I had to install obvious things like curl and inxi, M19 had them already.

Kubuntu 18.04.3 didn't have inxi, I had to install that and I checked in a VM using the full installation of Kubuntu (just in case it was due to my favoring the min install) and I had to install that as well.

I think Mint is trying, not necessarily to be like KDE, but give people a little more options then vanilla Gnome, but still be more firm to where it's not option over lode. I'm just speculating though. I'm not a particular fan of that, although I can understand that. It very much depends on their target user base I believe, but again, speculating on that.

It's not like elementaryOS where they really try to keep the user from tweaking things. Which can be a plus, depending on the type of user that you are, but that is way to Mac like for me and visually that's where they've taken their cue from and it seems like they did more then that in how they setup their OS as well.

The only real advantage that Mint has for me, is that I don't know have to use the unbind/bind script via cron at reboot (just feels like a hack that shouldn't need to exist, not to mention that it took me (and that's me for ya) a considerably long time to come up with that resolution, that may have put a lot of people off of it), but that may change if it's related to something else, kernel changes etc. Eventually that may have to be done with Mint as well.

[Don B. Cilly]

Actually, I'm beginning to understand why people don't like KDE when they try it.
To be able to do comparisons, I got me an osbox of Kubuntu 19.

It's been running more than 20 minutes and it's still unusable.

~$ uptime
20:57:55 up  24 min,  1 user,  load average: 2.18, 2.24, 2.38

And you know what it is? Discover.
You can't do anything on it and Plasma crashes are constant. For more than 20 minutes, ffs.

Now, either they fix Discover, or at least teach it to behave, or people are not going to use Kubuntu.
I'll let Discover sweat itself out, try to reduce the impact a bit, and report back after I've got a workable system.
Still, this does not happen with neon (unstable version anyway).

[EDIT]

~$ uptime
21:11:39 up  [B]37 min[/B],  1 user,  load average: 1.39, 1.58, 1.81

[jglen490]

If you are going to compare OSes, at least run each on the same platform, not a strangled/limited VM, if you expect to get results that are meaningfully comparable.

Yes, Kubuntu is far more efficient than the nay-sayers say. But, Mint with Cinnamon is an outstanding platform - far better than Ubuntu/Gnome. Mint stopped development with KDE - since Kubuntu has done so well with it - to focus on Cinnamon and Mate as well as its Debian distro. I'm a Kubuntu fan and have been for a very long time, and will continue as long as KDE continues to be smooth. That being said Mint is a very fine distro, with a kind of strange clientele, based on traffic in the forum. I've not found a distro that is in anyway better than those two in terms of user experience and support.

I'm still not a fan of Discover, but I do have to admit it has come a long way towards improvement in a short time. I still find it only useful for notifications of updates, and do installs with apt, discovery with Synaptic, and troubleshooting with dpkg.

[chimak111]

Re. the official Ubuntu flavors, I think that inxi is default only in Xubuntu and Ubuntu Mate.

In any case, I don't use the repo version. I prefer the ppa package provided by https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/inxi. (Yes, I very much trust the person behind the ppa.)

Repo version: 2.3.56
ppa version: 3.0.36

Re. the disastrous behavior seen with Kubuntu 19.04 (with the backports ppa): I can't reproduce that in my qemu/kvm VM set up with just one core of an i3 CPU and 4GB RAM. And Discover is not disabled, just ignored (except for its notifications).

[woodsmoke]

Hi
This has been an interesting thread in many ways.

At the risk of BORING everyone, because I've said it before but.

a) It is just AMAZING to me how different people have massive problems with the "core" of Kubuntu and so many others do not. Really, there really are people that just have down in the guts of it, problems with the OS and some of it's core functionality.
b) And, it is also just amazing to me, to restate item (a) above, that people USED to say when they would pop in to "view the place" that the OS much not be very good because there was no "activity" at the forum like at Ubuntu forums.
I, personally always wanted to post something like, "well that is because most folks don't have a problem with the OS so they are not here to complain". lol
c) As everybody knows. I have complained loudly and often about Kontact in general, but that was almost always something to do with Akonadai or that Microsoft was not playing nice, I did not consider it to be a "core" functionality of the OS.
the '
d) what I DO consider to be a core functionality is things like Discover and the "bells and whistles" such as Plasma being able to "float documents" and make some semi-transparent, etc. so that one can view several documents through each other to interact with them. Yeah I know that it is a 'teachery" thing but it is helpful in that way. The whole activities thing which for some strange reason people just do not seem to be able to "get".
Those are what I consider to be the "core stuffs" of KDE and I have never had a problem with them going all the way back to 'Compiz fusion" most of which is now just incorporated into Plasma.

What I do NOT consider to be a core function is... the Plasma Media Center and, again, Kontact.

So, again, I just have never understood why some people just couldn't get the Plasma Desktop to "do what it is supposed to do".

And... I've said it before...I think that really..;... at least part of it has to do with:
a ) PERSONAL TASTES...some people like the classic Gnome kicker and some like Kubu type stuff
Some people like GkRellm and some did not
Some people liked the ...what was that kicker that one could install in the middle of the bottom that looked like MAC...don't remember, but some liked it and some did not.
b) the machine, which is usually a laptop that is having problems, like playing a sound through speakers, or "rendering" stuff... because of a high end graphics card that doesn't have a fully tweaked driver.
c) Using the absolute latest and greatest Kubu, or Gnome, or whatever, for that matter of fact.

so to that end,
d) I have always stayed about 6 months BEHIND on the releases, sometimes a whole release..
e) I have always stayed BEHIND about two years or so in terms of graphics cards and hardware in general.

As to DISCOVER and MUON which I have always considered a "core" item, I just do not use them. I use synaptic. I have to actually INSTALL it using sudo or from Discover but it ALWAYS works...

Now, yes, Discover pops pretty notifications about updates and I generally "do" them, but every once in a while I run Synaptic and "reload" or I do sudo...

Both Discover and Muon had their teething problems yes...

BUT AGAIN, I have never had a "real problem" with either so ...AGAIN, it must be something in the hardware or the particular apps that have been installed because SOME people REALLY DO have problems with them...dunno... really, just dunno..;.

So, to sum this all up...

I, particularly, have never had a problem with the core functions of KDE, Kubu, etc.
I HAVE had problems with extra stuff like Kmail

There are a lot of fanbois and KDE itself that brags about Plasma being a "modern" desktop... well yeah...it IS modern in that it has come AFTER Gnome...

But a LOT of people like GNOME... it is pretty straightforward, lends itself to having stuff "on the desktop" etc. Some people like that.
Other like a "CLEAN AS IN CLEAN AS IN CLEAN EMPTY desktop...those USED TO BE...the "old groaners" that did everything from CLI and had IN THEIR MEMORY... what to type to do ANYthing...

Well, the activities eliminated both of the above arguments.

One can default to an immaculately clean activity for "the" desktop, that is what I. particularly do, but then I have relatively clutterd activity for say...music...

So, again, it is remarkable to me that people who supposedly have the equivalent hardware, the equivalent apps, the equivalent OS can have such a variety of "problems". and that is NOT to mention "taste preferences"...

But, again, INTERESTING THREAD!!

woodlikesitsmoke

[Don B. Cilly]

If you are going to compare OSes, at least run each on the same platform, not a strangled/limited VM, if you expect to get results that are meaningfully comparable.

Well, they are on the same platform, it's the same VM on the same box

Anyway, after one hour (!), last night it quieted down.
Enough to install conky so one can see what's going on.
Because, for one whole hour after first boot - call it half-an hour on a real installation - one can't do anything, and unless he opens a "top" window he doesn't even know why.
If he does, he sees unattended-upgr and packagekitd taking up all resources, but otherwise, an inexperienced user, what does he think? This doesn't work, is what he does.
And of course Plasma "closed unexpectedly, so sorry, send a report"...
That did not happen with Gnome or Cinnamon boots, BTW.

So I snapshot the VM an go to sleep.
This morning, at resume, unattended-upgr sees the clock, thinks, what, eight hours have gone by and I haven't clogged the system yet!
Result: 20 minutes of:



So, I wonder what it is doing for so long. Check the update status: 115 packages can be upgraded.
When it's finished clogging, I check again: 106 packages can be upgraded.
20 minutes of unusable system for that? Wow.
And the new kernel still has to be fetched, mind you.

But the thing is... this sort of behaviour is what makes most people run away screaming from Windows.
It has to be the one main reason why some people eventually feel adventurous enough to try Linux.
So they try Ubuntu or Mint... fine. At least I can work.
They try Kubuntu... aaargh! This is the same crud. I can't do anything until this Windows-like thing decides to let me work.
BTW, Neon (unstable, anyway) does not even have unattended-upgrades anywhere. Huge advantage.

Anyway. I ran a CLI full-upgrade (still doing it, it's updating the kernel, you know...), I'll see if that calms it down, and if I can get it to a normal state, I'll do a resource comparison.

[Don B. Cilly]

So. After a reboot... it finally has calmed down.
And "idle" CPU usage is comparable to Gnome's. Slightly lower, actually.



Certainly much better than the rather absurd always-above-25% Cinnamon one.
Which may be due to it reacting badly to the VM... I don't know... but still.
If anyone has a Cinnamon in a VM, or on a HD, I'd be interested to see what his conky shows.

Still.
About three minutes after reboot, the dreaded update-apt-xapi came up.
Six minutes of:



and consequently very sluggish performance. Not the total-cripple of the first boot (one whole hour, mind you), but still not nice.
I remember hating that xapian stuff from K18. I remember being so glad when Neon didn't do it.

Still. We have a situation here where a new Kubuntu user finds a system that
- When he first installs it, pretty much refuses to work for about half an hour. And yes, I remember noticing when I installed it. And splashes s all over the place (I remember that too).
- At every boot, and periodically when running, it goes into xapian mode and everything goes sluggish.
And mind you, I have a very precise and compact conky monitor, so I can at least spot the fault - immediately. Most people don't.

So what does he think? "KDE is a resource hog".
Thing is, it isn't. I have Arch with KDE, Kali with KDE, Neon with KDE (on HD). And Kubuntu 18, with KDE, on HD.
Well, it's not KDE. It's Kubuntu. And it's not Kubuntu, it's how updates and upgrades are handled in it.

Sure, "it's the old security vs. usability tradeoff".
No, it isn't. It's bad coding, is what it is. Combined with total disregard for usability.

So, now I get it. Why people won't use Kubuntu.

[EDIT] BTW, my "idle" CPU usage on Neon (with 4 cores, on HD) looks like this:

[jglen490]

Statistics are nice.

One thing, for clarification, while I really like KDE as a platform, there are specific KDE "things" that don't get to stay on my platform. The whole kdepim thing with its exceptionally akonadi does not get to play at my house. I'll gladly sacrifice a tiny bit of appearance consistency for a whole lot of sanity.

[WWDERW]

d) what I DO consider to be a core functionality is things like Discover and the "bells and whistles" such as Plasma being able to "float documents" and make some semi-transparent, etc. so that one can view several documents through each other to interact with them. Yeah I know that it is a 'teachery" thing but it is helpful in that way.

I don't know if you consider kwin a core function, but I've always had to disable that. Every day and a half, I was getting a crashes related to that. I used to get them with Baloo, but I haven't gotten those as much.

The whole activities thing which for some strange reason people just do not seem to be able to "get".

I'm one of those. I was thinking it did something that it apparently did not (or I wasn't trying to do it correctly), so I just don't mess with it. Not using it doesn't affect my over all enjoyment of the system, so it didn't bother me that i don't use it.

So, again, I just have never understood why some people just couldn't get the Plasma Desktop to "do what it is supposed to do".

I have to wonder if it boils down to having to deal with hacks, workarounds to get it to "do what it is supposed to do". While I don't mind a little bit of getting my hands dirty to fixing something. To much (and some of that is due to my ignorance of some things) gets in the way of just using the rig to do what it needs to do to make money.

some like Kubu type stuff

This is the camp that I fall into and perhaps the biggest reason why I'm still with KDE despite Cintiq issues (although I'm wondering if that's more related to the kernel then it is to a particular DE), despite kwin not working, despite some quirks with VLC and Virtualbox.

e) I have always stayed BEHIND about two years or so in terms of graphics cards and hardware in general.

Video card of my office rig (the only rig that actually has these problems, I actually run Neon (even on a newer computer) on the others and don't have this issue (now the Cintiq is only on this computer, although I do have other Cintiqs, they aren't connected)) is from 2014 and the rest of the computer is from 2015. So not bleeding edge at all. Now I do have the 390 Nvidia driver and that may or may not contribute to the other issues. Thing is, the Nouveau driver is not usable at all on this computer, works fine on the others.

As to DISCOVER and MUON which I have always considered a "core" item, I just do not use them. I use synaptic. I have to actually INSTALL it using sudo or from Discover but it ALWAYS works...

Now, yes, Discover pops pretty notifications about updates and I generally "do" them, but every once in a while I run Synaptic and "reload" or I do sudo...

Both Discover and Muon had their teething problems yes...

BUT AGAIN, I have never had a "real problem" with either so ...AGAIN, it must be something in the hardware or the particular apps that have been installed because SOME people REALLY DO have problems with them...dunno... really, just dunno..;.

Never used Muon at all. Didn't even know that it existed. I hadn't used discover since 16.04 and it was awful. There are only a handful of programs/services/whatever you want to call it that I install via apt, but I do it exclusively from CLI (even on other distros). All my other programs are portable. I'm not a fan of repos in general, while I can understand them from a sys admin perspective, just not a fan of them. I know I'm by far in the minority. And I'm OK with that.

I HAVE had problems with extra stuff like Kmail

I have had problems with Kmail on Kubuntu (thankfully the min install doesn't keep that stuff on there), but on Neon, I haven't had that issue at all.

Well, the activities eliminated both of the above arguments.

One can default to an immaculately clean activity for "the" desktop, that is what I. particularly do, but then I have relatively clutterd activity for say...music...

That's what I thought it did, but it didn't work out like that for me in the end (also on the same main office rig where other KDE issues happen, never tried it on the others).

[woodsmoke]

WWDERW
Hi, and thanks for the very long and thoughtful reply. I KNOW what it takes to do all those QUOTES!

I think that your comments will be well regarded by many readers.

As to Kwin, I never THOUGHT about that but yeah...

lol, just goes to show that I REALLY AM older than dirt!

again, thanks for the thoughtful comments!

woody

[WWDERW]

I think that your comments will be well regarded by many readers.

Typically it's usually thought of as long winded, argumentative, gas bag before it's well regarded. I don't intend for it to be, just how I learn (perhaps not the best, analyzing like that).

I do love using quotes quite a bit.. Such as it is.

[woodsmoke]

okay!
woody