Microsoft loves Linux so much it wants someone else to build distros for its Windows

[TWPonKubuntu]

Full Title:
Microsoft loves Linux so much it wants someone else to build distros for its Windows Store


The subtitle may be more accurately interpreted as:

"Hey Little Girl, Want Some Candy?"

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0...osoft_wsl_oss/

Embrace, Engulf and Erase...

This post brought to you by a Windows(r) basher, me, (pun not intended, but recognized) who banned Windows(r) from his systems long, long ago... With extreme prejudice.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[wizard10000]

I loaded up Debian from the Windows Store onto one of my 8" Win10 tablets just to see what all the hoopla was about. If you're a dev it's probably great - but the distributions in the Windows store now are console-only. It was interesting, but since I'm not a developer I could see no reason to keep it installed.

edit: I also have extreme prejudice but I'm afraid Linux doesn't work nearly as well as Windows on Bay Trail and Cherry Trail devices. Spent almost a year trying to get one of them to Linux efficiently.

[TWPonKubuntu]

Wizard,

Respectfully, that sounds like reason to change to using devices which Do work with Linux...

[GreyGeek]

The BEST argument for WSL?

I watched several YT videos showing Linux CLI & GUI's under WSL. This video gave as a basic argument that more people will run Linux under WSL than would have run Linux standalone, so it is a good thing. The counter argument is that if people can run Linux CLI tools and GUI's under WSL why install a pure Linux distro as either a dual boot or stand alone?

The video maker's main thrust is that for cross development (?) it makes development easier because one doesn't have to run one or the other under VirtualBox. His implication is that the average user will not be setting Win10 up to run Linux under the WSL because they have no interest in development. My reply is that even for developers it would be better to developed using Qt under Linux and then export the source to Windows in a VM to compile it than to run Linux under WSL. For four years I developed Windows apps on SuSE using Qt, Kate, and KDbg. I could do it 2-3X faster than using VS C++ 6.0 under XP. When I was done developing in SuSE using PostgreSQL as the db I'd boot into Windows and import the source and compile it using VS C++ 6.0. I had compiler defines switching code between PostgreSQL and Oracle depending which OS was detected in the environment.

As I understand it the Linux kernel & apps have to communicate to the hardware through the Windows kernel and libraries. That makes it slower, and more vulnerable, and less stable. Linux tools and GUI apps can be set up as Icons on the Windows desktop, to be run by merely clicking on them. It is like running Windows apps using WINE on Linux. The Parker IQUAN PCL dev tool on my KDE Neon is a menu listing and an Icon in my panel. It runs transparently as if it were a native app like Dolphin, and it is quick. It is more safe because it is behind Linux & ufw. So, IMO, WSL has the same look and feel on Win10 that WINE has on Kubuntu or KDE Neon.

All that aside, and the fact that the video author thinks the 2% desktop market share is a valid percentage, but I add: only if you do not consider Linux Linux share in all other areas of computer usage, from supercomputers, to servers, to nations and their military's, then the Linux market share is closer to 40%.

So, bottom line, I cannot divorce myself from Microsoft's past history and so I believe the WSL is nothing more than Microsoft's attempt to plug the exponential erosion of their desktop market share. With Joe and Sally Sixpack trying Linux as Bash shell most will immediately drop it, assuming that they gave Linux a "fair trial". Very few will actually run in that shell "sudo apt install plasma-desktop" and give KDE a fair shake down cruise. And the very few who are smart enough to do that will be disappointed with the speed because they won't realize that Windows is in between, slowing everything down.

[TWPonKubuntu]

As I understand it the Linux kernel & apps have to communicate to the hardware through the Windows kernel and libraries. That makes it slower, and more vulnerable, and less stable

This would be the "Engulf" phase...

[GreyGeek]

This would be the "Engulf" phase...

Na, personally I think that making Linux appear to be too complicated to use is the “Extinguish” phase because Joe and Sally will consider themselves fortunate that they never attempted to switch to Linux.

What if, after Kubuntu was installed to the HD as the only OS, the newb was presented only with a Bash prompt and no GUI’s of any kind were installed?

They are not developers, they don’t understand man pages when they read them, and if they don’t have an Ethernet cable that automatically mounted and connected they’d have to figure out how to connect to their WiFi from the CLI. (Although under the WSL they’d have a WiFi Connection).

Within five minutes of poking around in Bash they’d throw up their hands and re-install Windows. They’d never be seen again trying Linux again.

Ergo, IMO, WSL is designed specifically to discourage Joe & Sally from switching to Linux by deliberately giving them a 1995 experience. M$ could have just as easily created a Gnome and/or KDE desktop Icon on their desktop that could give Joe or Sally a one click access to those desktops, but they didn’t. And, the theory that the WSL “makes it easier for cross platform developers” is ludicrous. In my experience developing Qt apps for Linux and Windows using one source code was simple, and writing the source using Linux tools was easier and faster.

WSL is a clever Extinguish phase designed to prevent Windows users and developers from leaving Windows.

What does every Linux user do after they have found replacement apps for all their “irreplaceable” Windows apps? They remove WinX and use only Linux.

[Bings]

So, Canonical has helped Microsoft run Linux programs seamlessly on Windows but not requested the same in return?

[TWPonKubuntu]

So, Canonical has helped Microsoft run Linux programs seamlessly on Windows but not requested the same in return?

I don't know that this has been done, but I would suspect that there was an exchange of money in that deal...

I think I agree with GG, above. Make Linux look unusable to the average Windows(r) user. They (Windows(r) users) are so used to having their hands held that they no long (if ever) try to learn how to do it themselves. It is sad, but true. I know because I live with a die-hard Windows(r) addict. They wear custom built blinders of their own design.

[wizard10000]

Wizard,

Respectfully, that sounds like reason to change to using devices which Do work with Linux...

True enough - but a $65 8" quad-core tablet with 2GB RAM and a 32GB MMC is pretty attractive. Not spam, check it out -

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I bought the things to put Linux on them. After much configurating I got most of it to work using Gnome3 as KDE just ain't there yet on touchscreen devices. The heck of it was that Gnome3 used as much RAM at idle as Win10 but Windows was considerably faster and things Just Worked. I tried hard to get them to Linux and eventually just put an OEM image back on them.

Wireless worked, bluetooth and sound did not. Also had some issues with accelerometer data being translated incorrectly but I'd used an xrandr workaround for that. Could have lived without sound and bluetooth but even with Gnome3 the things just didn't run as well as they do with Windows.

Right now I've got one of them not connected to any network acting as a music player (got 64GB micro-SD card in one) and they make fine e-book readers but Linux starts swapping on the things as soon as you open a browser

[wizard10000]

Oh - one more interesting thing; the distributions in the Windows Store don't install a Linux kernel, they use whatever WSL compatibility layer they've cooked up. Also, systemd doesn't work and I played with sysv a little on one and it didn't work real great either - but if you wanted to run vim or emacs to write code WSL is actually kinda cool and runs quicker than a VM.

[TWPonKubuntu]

wizard, I just hope you don't drink too much of the M$ KoolAid(r). The after-affects are nasty.

I've stopped playing with fire and refuse to use any Redmond products. Yes, it might cost me some business when I state that "I don't do Windows(r)", but I sleep better for it and I think my clients do also.

[wizard10000]

wizard, I just hope you don't drink too much of the M$ KoolAid(r). The after-affects are nasty.

I've stopped playing with fire and refuse to use any Redmond products. Yes, it might cost me some business when I state that "I don't do Windows(r)", but I sleep better for it and I think my clients do also.

Oh, I've had more kool-aid than everybody here put together

Former MS certified systems engineer and former Microsoft MVP in desktop OS and Windows networking. The MVP program is a high honor as there are only 600 MVPs worldwide to support all MS products. Used to get to go to the annual MVP shindig in Redmond every year, some monetary and software perks and even got the stinkeye from Steve Ballmer hisself once for questioning Windows pricing at an MVP shindig.

I work in Windows but these two 8" tablets are the first Windows devices I've owned since about 2007 when I switched to Linux full-time; had been dabbling in Linux since about 1994.

[TWPonKubuntu]

Then you're in the Windows(r) Ten Step Recovery Program. Never give up and always know you can call this forum for those times when you want to backslide...

[wizard10000]

Then you're in the Windows(r) Ten Step Recovery Program. Never give up and always know you can call this forum for those times when you want to backslide...

No backsliding here

Think I've told the story before, but when I got the stinkeye from Steve B I was attending a presentation in Redmond on brand-new Windows Product Activation (WPA). This was right before the Windows XP launch.

Raised my hand and said that since MS had already factored the price of piracy into Windows those formerly pirated copies were pure profit and did MS intend to reduce the price of Windows?

Got some stammering from the podium and a comment that the price of WinXP hadn't been set yet, a round of applause from my fellow MVPs and as mentioned, a dirty look from Steve

[GreyGeek]

.....

I bought the things to put Linux on them. After much configurating I got most of it to work using Gnome3 as KDE just ain't there yet on touchscreen devices. The heck of it was that Gnome3 used as much RAM at idle as Win10 but Windows was considerably faster and things Just Worked. I tried hard to get them to Linux and eventually just put an OEM image back on them.

And you are not a noobie. Can you imagine a noob trying what you attempted?

Of course "things just worked". NuVision worked hand in hand with Microsoft to make sure of that because their hardware was designed to work with Windows and their library files, not Linux's.

Your experience establishes my thesis, and WSL wasn't even a "solution".

Right now I've got one of them not connected to any network acting as a music player (got 64GB micro-SD card in one) and they make fine e-book readers but Linux starts swapping on the things as soon as you open a browser

So, it's all Linux's fault? Imagine the gall of Linux thinking it could run on a box designed specifically to run Windows, and all without the help of either the manufacturer or Microsoft.

Oh - one more interesting thing; the distributions in the Windows Store don't install a Linux kernel, they use whatever WSL compatibility layer they've cooked up. Also, systemd doesn't work and I played with sysv a little on one and it didn't work real great either - but if you wanted to run vim or emacs to write code WSL is actually kinda cool and runs quicker than a VM.

And so the coder will see no need to install pure Linux and code under it. I rest my case.

A reminder: having actually done cross platform coding I can say unequivocally that writing and test Qt code in Linux is 2 to 3 times faster in Linux than in Windows running VS C++ 6.0. I imagine that it still is since the speed of Linux has increased considerably in the last 10 years.