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    #1

    Time to put Java in the rear view mirror?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...against-google

    The dispute is over pre-written directions known as application program interfaces, or APIs, which can work across different types of devices and provide the instructions for things like connecting to the internet or accessing certain types of files. By using the APIs, programmers don’t have to write new code from scratch to implement every function in their software or change it for every type of device.

    The case has divided Silicon Valley for years, testing the boundaries between the rights of those who develop interface code and those who rely on it to develop software programs.

    Oracle said its APIs are freely available to those who want to build applications for computers and mobile devices, but draws the line at anyone who wants to use them for a competing platform or to embed them in an electronic device. It said it was entitled to $8.8 billion in damages from Google during the 2016 trial.
    Does Oracle consider Kubuntu or KDE Neon (or other distros besides Oracle's) a competing platform?
    "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
    – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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    #2
    Which is why we should all be using openJDK
    systemd is not for me. I am a retro Nintendo gamer. consoles I play on are, SNES; N64; GameCube and WII.
    Host: mx Kernel: 4.19.0-6-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 8.3.0 Desktop: Trinity R14.0.8 tk: Qt 3.5.0 info: kicker wm: Twin 3.0 base: Debian GNU/Linux 10
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      #3
      Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...against-google
      Does Oracle consider Kubuntu or KDE Neon (or other distros besides Oracle's) a competing platform?
      Doesn't really matter if they do or don't, nothing in linux distributions replicate the java APIs (this is basically the reason why you need to install a java VM to run java apps).

      What google did with android is that they wrote their "own version of java vm". They rewrote the code but copied the APIs from java so that java apps/code would run on android. And the copying the APis is what the law suit is about (whether APIs are actually copyright-able [resolved earlier], and if so, whether google's use of them can be considered fair use).

      The fact that APIs can fall under copyright could have a significant effect on software development industry as a whole, though.

      Don't get me wrong, there are few things that would give me greater pleasure than seeing Java die a painful death in the hands of axe wielding Vandals (I'd accept Visi- or even Ostrogoths in the case Vandals were busy elsewhere), but this ruling doesn't directly affect the usage of java VMs in linux (or developing or using java apps).
      Last edited by kubicle; Mar 27, 2018, 05:28 PM.
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        #4
        For similar reasons, I would like to see Javascript replaced also... Too bad the browsers lack this functionality right now.

        It looks like Google(r) lost this round with Java:

        https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...s-court-rules/
        Last edited by TWPonKubuntu; Mar 27, 2018, 05:57 PM.
        Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.12.3, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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          #5
          Originally posted by TWPonKubuntu View Post
          ...
          It looks like Google(r) lost this round with Java:

          https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...s-court-rules/
          Thx for the link!
          "Giving customers ‘for free something they would ordinarily have to buy’ can constitute commercial use."
          Kubuntu 20.04
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            #6
            "Giving customers ‘for free something they would ordinarily have to buy’ can constitute commercial use."
            Hmmmm... That sounds like in invitation for future trouble.

            Large crocodile tears for Google(r) too. Gee, such a nice company [sarcasm off]
            Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.12.3, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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              #7
              Originally posted by kubicle View Post
              Doesn't really matter if they do or don't, nothing in linux distributions replicate the java APIs (this is basically the reason why you need to install a java VM to run java apps).
              When I was at a crossroads between investing my time learning Java or learning the Qt API, I went with Qt. I chose Qt because it contained EVERYTHING I needed to develop an application with a GUI. With Java I needed several other tools, like Ant, for example, and it seemed that for a specific release version of Java the other tools had to be specific versions as well (Six additional tools, IIRC). Getting the versions of those tools lined up was a pain.
              I never pickup up Java but later used Python instead, mainly for scripts, because wxPython had similar problems.

              Originally posted by kubicle View Post
              ...

              The fact that APIs can fall under copyright could have a significant effect on software development industry as a whole, though. .... but this ruling doesn't directly affect the usage of java VMs in linux (or developing or using java apps).
              It seems to me that considering how long this case has taken, and how the CAFA handwaves around section (102)b of the CopyRight Act, Oracle may become embolden and exploit the ignorance of the CAFA judge's lack of understanding of how copyright doesn't apply to API's and sue major distros like SUSE, RH and Ubuntu (the ones making the most money with Linux) for infringement by openJDK's vm.
              Last edited by GreyGeek; Mar 27, 2018, 08:47 PM.
              "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
              – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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                #8
                Originally posted by TWPonKubuntu View Post
                For similar reasons, I would like to see Javascript replaced also.
                Java and Javascript are very different things, though, and are not related despite their names. Commonly used phrase is that "Java" and "Javascript" are similar in the same way that "Ham" and "Hamster" are similar.

                Originally posted by chimak111 View Post
                "Giving customers ‘for free something they would ordinarily have to buy’ can constitute commercial use."
                That's actually less drastic than it sounds, as "can" is not the same as "always will". In other words, you can't claim something is non-commercial just because you're giving it away. For example, most would agree that giving away free samples for marketing purposes is not non-commercial.

                Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post
                ...and sue major distros like SUSE, RH and Ubuntu (the ones making the most money with Linux) for infringement by openJDK's vm.
                They can't, effectively. OpenJDK was released by Sun (and currently by Oracle) under the GPL (+linking exception), which means anyone can copy, modify and distribute it freely (provided they comply with the GPL, of course).

                Google's main problem is/was likely that they copied the public java api before the release of the OpenJDK (under the GPL) by Sun (probably under the impression that the api wasn't protected by copyright).

                Google has since switched it's android api to match the OpenJDK api (currently the standard java api), which means it no longer violates the copyright (as OpenJDK is GPL), but that does not eradicate the original violation, for which they are likely getting a penalty (damages) after the latest ruling (how big it is and whether there will be more appeals is still in the air).
                Last edited by kubicle; Mar 28, 2018, 01:57 AM.
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                  #9
                  I must stand by my original statement, JavaScript can go away too. I'm not so unrealistic as to expect that to happen soon, but there is a need for another client side scripting language. And it should be a stand-alone language and not be built on top of the javascript engine.

                  We now return you to the topic-du-thread: Java.
                  Kubuntu 24.11 64bit under Kernel 6.12.3, Hp Pavilion, 6MB ram. Stay away from all things Google...
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                    #10
                    groklaw was a great site for following stuff such as Google vs Oracle and Apple vs Samsung.
                    Kubuntu 20.04
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by chimak111 View Post
                      groklaw was a great site for following stuff such as Google vs Oracle and Apple vs Samsung.
                      It sure was!
                      PJ was a legal secretary, or law clerk (?), who knew her stuff and had access to info which, at the time, wasn’t available via ordinary use. SCO’s CEO Darryl McBride, IIRC, tried to find out who she was and so did IBM and others. She threw a monkey wrench into a lot of their plans to hijack Linux or destroy it.
                      She hasn’t resurfaced since she shuttered GrokLaw.
                      "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                      – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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                        #12
                        From her last posts there, it appeared that she was concerned that her sources could be impacted negatively ...
                        Kubuntu 20.04
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by chimak111 View Post
                          From her last posts there, it appeared that she was concerned that her sources could be impacted negatively ...
                          Ya, that and the fact that SCO had been decimated.
                          "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                          – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.
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