18 killed in school shooting

[TWPonKubuntu]

...
why dose jony whosit want to go in his own school (or anywhere else)and kill indiscriminate others ,,,and why dose he not seem to have the moral checks in his conscience to make him NOT want to hurt others he may not even know that well .

VINNY

Good question. I would point at Home, School and Church as points of failure in teaching morals to children.

[vinnywright]

Good question. I would point at Home, School and Church as points of failure in teaching morals to children.

the guns one could argue are a convenient tool to the end ,,,but if they were not around then soda bottles full of gas would suffice and be even more horrific.

the point is WHY WHY dose jony whosit WANT to do this and WHY dose his mind not give him some pause.

VINNY

[TWPonKubuntu]

That IS WHY: Lack of moral training from birth. From Home (parents, grandparents), from School ("teachers"), and from Church (everyone in the congregation).

Without that training, children are subject to bad examples and influence from all of the following: Peers, Media, Video Games, Television (as separate form media).

If you are asking "What were they thinking?" when they did these horrible acts... I cannot answer that. I could speculate, but could not expect to be accurate. I don't know.

What can be done? I'm glad you ask. Train and Arm teachers in the schools, train and arm parents at home, Hire armed guards at schools and churches. Absolutely outlaw "gun free zones", everywhere.

Do I expect this to happen? Perhaps, in some areas of the country (countries). When will this happen? I don't know.

[vinnywright]

train and arm parents at home,

fully armed hear ,,,,,,and know how to use them .

but would never think of just going out and shooting up a crowd no matter how mad I was .

VINNY

[GreyGeek]

He was referring to Germany, not the U.S.

Understood, but the implication was that the NRA in the US is evil.

BTW, I am not a member of the NRA but after all the attacks against it I may join.

[GreyGeek]

That IS WHY: Lack of moral training from birth. From Home (parents, grandparents), from School ("teachers"), and from Church (everyone in the congregation).

Without that training, children are subject to bad examples and influence from all of the following: Peers, Media, Video Games, Television (as separate form media).

If you are asking "What were they thinking?" when they did these horrible acts... I cannot answer that. I could speculate, but could not expect to be accurate. I don't know.

What can be done? I'm glad you ask. Train and Arm teachers in the schools, train and arm parents at home, Hire armed guards at schools and churches. Absolutely outlaw "gun free zones", everywhere.

Do I expect this to happen? Perhaps, in some areas of the country (countries). When will this happen? I don't know.

Remember when Bill Clinton was being "serviced" by a White House intern and when Americans objected they were told in no uncertain terms that their morality had no place in the political sphere. Now, 20 years later, who's forcing their morality on the rest of us?

Anyway, your point about training and morality instruction in the home is well made. I was born on the wrong side of the tracks and came from a broken home. Despite that, when I was 15 or 16 I took a bus to down town Dever, walked into the Dave Cook Sporting Goods store and put $75 on the counter for two M1-Garands. No ID necessary, no questions asked. I carried those two rifles, still in cosmoline & wrappers, but obvious as to what they were, home on the bus with me. Never shot at anything except Deer with them. Wish my step brother hadn't sold them while I was away at college. They are @ worth $1500-2000 today. The whole gun control campaign began when Charles Whitman, whose autopsy showed he had a brain tumor, shot a bunch of people from the Univ. of Texas Clock Tower in 1966. No move was made to regulate hunting knives he used to kill his wife and mother before his rampage. Since then nearly all of the mass shootings have been done by people with severe mental issues.

[ianp5a]

And meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. With over 1000 people in the US shot dead 'since' the Florida shooting. But maybe that's acceptable. And those people not important.

[Snowhog]

The entire focus is on (by the media and the government) the tool used by the assailant, and not the assailant who used the tool. As I have said; will continue to say; will continue to emphasize, is that the tool is not, never has been, the problem here. It's the weilder of the tool.

The United States is different than any other Country in the world. Our beginnings are different. Our culture is differnt. Our Constitution is very different. And, the express freedoms our Founders codified, thus guarantying to us in our Constitution and Bill of Rights, are very different from nearly every other Country on the face of planet Earth.

This too I've said, and say it again here: There is only one 'legal way' to affect 'gun control' here in the United States, and that's to pass an Amendment to the Constitution. Period. But the reason that this isn't heard, stated, or addressed by the media or government, is it's a very hard thing to do, and that too, was by design by our Founders. They (our Founders) were not stupid men. What they did; what they created (and I'm not referring just to the United States Constitution or the Bill of Rights) was unique in the world, and has not, as far as I know, ever been duplicated since.

We (the "U.S.") have a problem. Even as a Patron Life Member of the National Rifle Association, I recognize this, and so do the millions of N.R.A. Members. But we recognize that the problem is not the guns being demonized by the media and the government (small 'G' here, as it's at all levels of government); it's people misusing guns, and truth be told, if there were no guns, then without any other changes having been made (addressing mental health issues, having instutions and all States fully compliant with reporting to the federal NICS database, ...) these same people would find other means to their ends. If you think otherwise, you are living in a utopian world, seen through rose colored glasses.

[TWPonKubuntu]

And meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. With over 1000 people in the US shot dead 'since' the Florida shooting. But maybe that's acceptable. And those people not important.

This is what the Main Stream Media (MSM) is pushing. Not "caring for our fellow man". Do note that their emphasis (the government and MSM) is on banning guns. Look for power, control and money motives.

The guns are not the problem, as Snowhog expressed above.

Nor is legislation the solution.

And, with respect, neither is appealing to our moral sense of outrage (or implied lack of outrage) at the carnage.

We get that. Solutions have been proposed, and rejected, because they don't fit the media/government agenda.

Look at how the idea of arming teachers in classroom is being spun by the media.

Look at the hopeful signs of changes in concealed and open carry laws. "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

We DO get that there is a problem. There is disagreement with solutions.

[ianp5a]

We DO get that there is a problem. There is disagreement with solutions.

It's good that you get it. But some were trying to prove otherwise.

[GreyGeek]

In moments of lucidity Marxist state truths:
“Political power flows out of the barrel of a gun”. - Mao
“It doesn’t matter who votes. What matters is who counts the votes” - Lenin

EverytownUSA inflated their “school shootings” statistic by including armed robberies that occurred in school parking lots after hours, or near schools.
Considering that thousands more are killed by other means (opioids - 42,000) other than firearms, with little to no concern by the Left, their target is obvious.

[jglen490]

Well, first of all the loss of life in a group like this is cause for mourning and reflection. Reflection on the lives that could have been and what they could have meant to us all. Second, these kids were killed by a young man - a peer of theirs who has undergone tremendous emotional pressure for his losses and his inability to have support and care. Those two things are the most important facts that have to be addressed.

Next, a gun is not a tool. A gun is a machine intended place a projectile in a specific, targeted location at a distance from where the machine is initiated. A gun is not a hammer, it is not a screwdriver, it is not a tool. A tool can be used, or it can be abused. When a tool is used for its intended purpose, it is effective and efficient at what it is intended for use. When it is used for something other than what it was intended the results are less than beautiful. The difference between proper use and abusive use is made obvious by education or training, and someone who cares enough to provide that training.

A gun's sole purpose is to take a life, whether an animal while hunting, or another human being in an act of war. Target practice against an inanimate object can be a replacement activity, but that activity is again solely to become more proficient at placing the projectile in an exact location. Hunting is generally, a restricted activity, and taking a human life must always be well thought out as an acceptable event. These gun usage situations can only be made rational by understanding through education or training.

I agree with some of the statements above about the lack of training and understanding what a gun does, but some misplaced nostalgia about what went on long ago, does not solve the problem. Lamenting about city living versus country living is equally useless. We live in a time when we don't know our neighbors - by choice. We live in a time when social graces have disappeared and have been replaced by socializing at a distance, and face-to-face means staring into a camera and talking into a microphone. And we accept that as a good thing.

When we talk about important things like what it means to control someone's actions, the conversation goes away and we all dive into the pool of our own misunderstanding - of the next guy, of the fact that we all have worthwhile ideas, and we hide behind our scorn of thoughts that are different from out own "perfect" ideas. That becomes uncomfortable close to paranoia, an irrational fear of "other". Then we go further and put up shields of idealism, all too often an idealism concocted by someone with a louder voice or more money. We have become a nation of selfish, closed minded, individualistic naysayers. Much worse than the nattering nabobs of negativity, pronounced upon the nation by the pompous ass of a Vice President in the past century. We buy into an understanding of the U.S. Constitution that incessantly cherry picks one phrase, one amendment, one concept rather than the marvelous framework of law that it is in its totality.

Because it is easy.

Life is complicated, it is hard, is takes energy, and it takes respect that is given and not expected. And the only way to do that is to start with a conversation that does not assume that the "I" in that conversation has the only good ideas. Care about each other, notice when things don't look right not to impose your own will but to understand what is happening.

I own guns, they rarely see the light of day, but I am pretty good at handling and using them. I have never been, nor will I ever be a member of a certain gun related organization. Their single minded, narrow view of what it takes to make our system of law, and our society, great is based on a paranoid fear of the loss of one misunderstood part of that framework of law and society. They have made millions from us. But instead of turning those millions towards the good all of us by educating and training the nation, they have decided to be just another "Beltway Bandit" and spend their millions on buying Congressional seats. They are useless to us, the very ones who have given them their millions. And they are impediment to making useful decisions about how to handle the misunderstanding and misuse of guns and the foolish taking of lives with guns.

[sithlord48]

^ Wow a reasonable point devoid of any politics ^
The only thing I would say that a gun is a tool, a single use tool like a Guillotine.

[GreyGeek]

No really single use. I’ve owned various kinds of firearms for 62 years. My primary activity with them was precision target shooting. After that it was the occasional game hunting: game birds, squirrels & rabbits, deer, elk and bear. Always for food. When I said I was from the poor side of the tracks I wasn’t virtue signaling.

While hunting I experienced two incidents of other hunters mistaking me for a deer and throwing some lead my way. When the ground 20 yards beside them exploded they realized I wasn’t a Deer. .

While teaching in a rural country school I was the highest paid teacher in the system, with a take-home pay of $700/mo. During the oil embargo in the early 70’s I could no longer afford propane so I switched to wood. Pheasant and Deer put meat on the table. I worked a side job as deputy marshal, and that was the only time I drew a weapon on an individual. He was an escaped murderer from a mental health facility in Hastings. Never had to shoot the 9mm service handgun, however, but I had no reservations about doing it if it meant I could return home to my wife and kids.

I became much more prosperous after I started my own consulting business and didn’t need to hunt for food. I switched to bows but on my first bow hunt I wished I had a camera instead, so that was my last hunt with a weapon. After that I shot 35mm instead.

Following my last 35mm hunt around 1980 my business kept me too busy to hunt and I never fired another round until four years after I retired. The trigger for the renewed interest was a letter from the Board of Pardons about a SCOTUS ruling which nullified a murder conviction of a 14 yr old who shot his stepsister in the head and then molested the body. It was my evidence that changed the charge from man slaughter to 1D murder. His lawyer got a 2D plea bargain and he was sentenced to 40 yrs in prison without parole. That was in 1987. In 1998 he got a chance for a retrial (long story). I had kept the evidence under lock and key so it was used in trial along with my testimony. This time the jury found him guilty of 1st degree murder and he was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

In 2012 the SCOTUS ruling meant that he could be set free. A total of four psychiatrists have testified that due to his early life experiences (another long story) he had a psychotic hatred of women and should never be released from custody. I refreshed my shooting skills and got a concealed carry permit.

I would not characterize the use of firearms to defend the lives of yourself and your loved ones “foolish”. What is foolish is the notion that one should sacrifice their lives at the whim of an armed thug. Equally foolish is the notion that one could “shoot the perp in the arm or leg” and thus disable them. All handguns do is poke holes, unlike high velocity bullets from rifles. The only instantaneous crippling shot is one which hits the spinal cord from the neck up, or the brain. Even a heart shot gives the perp a few seconds to shoot back. Folks hit on other locations can raise a lot trouble before they get tired and sit down. Regardless, a handgun is better than a pointed stick. One CNN “expert”, when explaining how to avoid getting shot in a workplace incident said that if you get trapped in your office and the shooter comes in your best option is to “grab a sharp pencil, call up your inner ninja, and rush the shooter”.

Firearms are tools, and they have several uses. No government on earth has been successful in keeping firearms out of the hands of people who want them. And that includes patriots who wish to defend their God given Constitutional right to defend the Rule of Law under the Constitution from those who give it lip service while working as hard as they can to shred it.



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[sithlord48]

Firearms are tools, and they have several uses.

Can you list all the uses of this tool?