Bush started Obama finished, a national curriculum

[TWPonKubuntu]

Education is failing

This thread is one of the most thought provoking in a long time. Part of my background is in education, physics and chemistry at the community college level. Common core was not even imagined at the time of my work in the school.

We, meaning those of us who tried to teach the sciences, expected basic proficiency in simple arithmetic: addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Exactly as GreyGeek says, the arithmetic tables were expected to be memorized and we went on from there. We used and taught various mnemonic tricks to remember simple formulas in algebra, trigonometry, geometry and calculus. But my god, how will someone who has received a common core "education" be expected to understand even simple algebra?

SteveRiley, if I understand your post correctly, you use the mental processes described by "common core" math. But I'll bet you did not learn it via the kind of training presented in that video. I do the same thing when solving arithmetic problems, but I learned that mental process by doing enough homework (and teaching it to others) to understand the process on an intuitive level. [rant] I certainly did not suffer through the convoluted and buzz-word laden mess spoken by the "teacher" in the video. [/rant]

Time will tell how this turns out, but it doesn't look good from my perspective. Who here is of the age to remember the "New Math" and where that took a generation of kids? No wonder we haven't gone back to the moon in decades.

[edit] You don't suppose they thought of counting on their fingers, do you? I mean we have five on each hand and two hands makes a "friendly" ten fingers. Nah, that is too much like the decimal system...

[Qqmike]

TWPonKubuntu: your post is the best thus far in this thread. Right on, I couldn't agree more.

As I recall, part of that "New Math" you mentioned had to do with sets; or at that time, teachers were using sets in the arithmetic classes. I couldn't believe it at the time. What complete idiots, teaching the kids set theory instead of multiplication tables.

How can a parent stand by and let another human being (the teacher), affect their kids in such a serious way? modify, shape, program the brains of their young child this way? How can you not face off with the idiot, file a damn lawsuit against them. As I ranted above, in math, I went to school with some of these idiots. I have no patience for their lack of competence.

I feel you're right. America is going to lose its competitive edge if we don't quit messing around with this crap.


Btw, I love set theory. Read Naive Set Theory by Paul Halmos. Neat stuff. It is a tool at the very foundation of mathematics. In fact, it IS at the most basic foundation of math, logic, cardinality theory, and "numbers" as we think of them. But it is way to abstract to use to teach young kids arithmetic.

[whatthefunk]

SteveRiley, if I understand your post correctly, you use the mental processes described by "common core" math. But I'll bet you did not learn it via the kind of training presented in that video. I do the same thing when solving arithmetic problems, but I learned that mental process by doing enough homework (and teaching it to others) to understand the process on an intuitive level. [rant] I certainly did not suffer through the convoluted and buzz-word laden mess spoken by the "teacher" in the video. [/rant]

So why not teach them the process and save them the time of doing endless of hours of homework that they hate?

The problem with the video is that the people they were interviewing Americans (most of who have an extremely poor understanding of math) about teaching math. Interesting fact of the day: Japanese kids, who rock at math, learn the same process that common teaches on an abacus. By Junior High School, their math level is the same as American college kids.

[TWPonKubuntu]

@whatthefunk. You are correct, it should be taught using the abacus. In the video above, the verbal babble of the person trying to explain the "common core" method of problem analysis reveals that she does not understand how to teach it. Yes, she knows the buzz-words, but does not attempt to explain them. Because those words ("friendly", "decompose", etc) are part of our language, they are assumed to carry their meaning over into the math process. That does not happen without a lot of repetition and problem solving experience. That is what teaches the meaning-in-context for the words being used.

I think it would be an excellent idea to give every young child an abacus ( and far cheaper than giving them a computer ). The physical use of the instrument would act through both the aural and tactile senses to reinforce the lesson. It is true that we "learn by doing". When I think about my own mental process for solving simple arithmetic, it maps directly to the abacus. Yes, that is using buzz-words to describe the mental process and some will not understand it ( young children especially) but this group on KF has some understanding of how "process mapping" works.

Just like the New Math based on Set Theory ( thanks for that Qqmike ), the attempt to teach "common core math" is being performed by a large number of people whose formal education is/was in "teaching theory". That group was given a few weeks of intensive indoctrination in the verbs and nouns (buzz-words) to be used. They did not receive training in the meaning of the math and certainly did not have enough time and repetition to reach understanding. The blind leading the blind.

I apologize for ranting about this. I left teaching because of frustration with the whole bureaucratic process and I needed to vent. Thanks for your patience.

[anika200]

should be taught using the abacus.

Hahaha, we learned the abacus too. Genius invention and I loved it, though I stopped carrying it around when I got my Ti30.

I really wonder about the futility of this conversation, when in fact it is entirely up to the individual what and how he/she learns. I just do not understand all the hand wringing over this, there are good teachers and methods and bad ones too. People will grow and learn beyond the first X years of education and thrive or not in spite of what ever system they are in.

[GreyGeek]

I believe I shared this story before, but now is a good time to repeat it. I was teaching physics and calculus at a local 4 year college. A French foreign exchange student, who was the equivalent of a high school senior in our school system, tested out of every science and math class the local high school offered. So, they brought him up to the college and enrolled him in my physics and calculus classes. The American kids in my classes all tested at the the 33+ level of the ACTs, which put them in the top 1% at the time. The French high school student blew the Americans out of the water and held down the top score in both classes, for both semesters. During the Xmas break I invited him home because France was too far away to visit for such a short time. While he was there I casually asked him what he was going to major in when he returned to France and attended college there. He told me he wasn't going to college. "What!", I asked. "I am not good enough to get in", he replied. I was stunned. I knew that the American high school system inflated grades and rankings but until that moment I didn't realize by how much. THAT is why American students cannot compete with students who rank in the top 20 countries in the world in ANY of the academic areas; science, math, reading, etc...

Dr. Michael Kaku calls the H-1B "America's Secret Weapon". Most of the quality American graduate schools are first rank, but are populated by foreign students here on an H-1B visa. He explains more:

Notice the sloppy, cavalier attitude of the guy defending the system. He is so typical of the arrogance of academia. The big problem now is that instead of staying here in America and adding to our productivity and educational system most are now returning to their own country, or some other more friendly country (such is America's decline in personal freedom that it now ranks only 12th in the area!) and all that education is not used to benefit America.

[whatthefunk]

I believe I shared this story before, but now is a good time to repeat it. I was teaching physics and calculus at a local 4 year college. A French foreign exchange student, who was the equivalent of a high school senior in our school system, tested out of every science and math class the local high school offered. So, they brought him up to the college and enrolled him in my physics and calculus classes. The American kids in my classes all tested at the the 33+ level of the ACTs, which put them in the top 1% at the time. The French high school student blew the Americans out of the water and held down the top score in both classes, for both semesters. During the Xmas break I invited him home because France was too far away to visit for such a short time. While he was there I casually asked him what he was going to major in when he returned to France and attended college there. He told me he wasn't going to college. "What!", I asked. "I am not good enough to get in", he replied. I was stunned. I knew that the American high school system inflated grades and rankings but until that moment I didn't realize by how much. THAT is why American students cannot compete with students who rank in the top 20 countries in the world in ANY of the academic areas; science, math, reading, etc...

Dr. Michael Kaku calls the H-1B "America's Secret Weapon". Most of the quality American graduate schools are first rank, but are populated by foreign students here on an H-1B visa. He explains more:

Notice the sloppy, cavalier attitude of the guy defending the system. He is so typical of the arrogance of academia. The big problem now is that instead of staying here in America and adding to our productivity and educational system most are now returning to their own country, or some other more friendly country (such is America's decline in personal freedom that it now ranks only 12th in the area!) and all that education is not used to benefit America.

This is what happens when you have a for-profit education system. Anything that is for profit has as its primary goal money. Look at the health care system in America. Look at politics in America. Look at environmental policy in America. Money is at the root of all of it. The American people are getting completely screwed and most dont even realize it.

[anika200]

He is so typical of the arrogance of academia.

Sorry but I have to point out that this is a weirdly/wildly leading statement, I mean really.
I will also note that the only other place I have ever heard this phase or sentiment has been on US American television.
Lets just look at the academia part of that statement, most everyone in the world would agree that the pursuit of research, education, and scholarship is a worth while pursuit.
If that is arrogance then fine by me, I will help my children pursue the arrogance of academia.

[anika200]

The American people are getting completely screwed and most dont even realize it.

Not only that, they actually promote it.

[GreyGeek]

Not only that, they actually promote it.

Unfortunately, so true. Sheeple.

[anika200]

Unfortunately, so true. Sheeple.

hahahaha, I see what your doin there GreyGeek.
Well why not the lol too.

[woodsmoke]

As usual..........the Grey Geek has entered the fray and pierced the petard that was hosted by the poor woodsmoker........

"Common Core" is no different than when I passed the TEACHER test on "modern algebra / sets" as a SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT.........

ALL of this is BOGUS.................

Again........the Grey......shall we say........Grey.......guy with a pointy hat in Lord of the Rings:

Sooner or later, and it is usually later if at all, the student must acquire an instant recall of the math facts.

I mentioned "all of this" in the "office" of the guy who runs the place......and HER....secretary.....went BALLISTIC.............

Her school has THROWN OUT TEACHING......this whole semester is going to be spent PREPARING.......for "common core"...........in the fall of 2015.

I WANT OTHERS TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS THREAD.............LOCAL KNOWLEDGE........

FROM EUROPE...........

really FROM............EUROPE........

FROM THE ORIENT........

REALLY from the ORIENT...........

what are "those people" doing..........

as compared to what is happening LOCALLY .......in the U.S.

wood........I thought I would be banned!! lol.......smoke......

might be banned anyway. lol

[charles052]

This is what happens when you have a for-profit education system. Anything that is for profit has as its primary goal money. Look at the health care system in America. Look at politics in America. Look at environmental policy in America. Money is at the root of all of it. The American people are getting completely screwed and most dont even realize it.

Yep, they are getting screwed by their own greed. Everyone wants a 1st rate education but don't want to pay for it. They think that the government should fit the bill which, oddly enough, costs us much more in the long run because the 1st thing government would do is cut funding which would lower education standards.

Oddly enough, I've heard that the top schools with the top professors don't even give out a top education because those professors are always doing something other than teaching and they consistently use substitutes in the classrooms. From my understanding, the best bang for your buck is in a community college.

[Qqmike]

charles052
From my understanding, the best bang for your buck is in a community college.

For MANY needs, I completely agree. Too many kids end up in college and have no clue why they are there or what they want. If you have a specific goal that can be met by a community college or local technical school, go for it. My nephew spent just a year or so at a local tech school for electrical, and now makes $60,000-$80,000/yr and is happy doing it. I have a doctorate, Master(s), been to four colleges, taught at four, but I do not feel that college is the best answer for everyone.

I've heard that the top schools with the top professors don't even give out a top education because those professors are always doing something other than teaching and they consistently use substitutes in the classrooms.

Exactly right. In fact, professors apply for grants and other assistance so they can buy their way out of teaching, so they can devote themselves to research. And a lot of that grant money, imo, is, well, shall we say, not so wisely spent.

[charles052]

For MANY needs, I completely agree. Too many kids end up in college and have no clue why they are there or what they want. If you have a specific goal that can be met by a community college or local technical school, go for it. My nephew spent just a year or so at a local tech school for electrical, and now makes $60,000-$80,000/yr and is happy doing it. I have a doctorate, Master(s), been to four colleges, taught at four, but I do not feel that college is the best answer for everyone.



Exactly right. In fact, professors apply for grants and other assistance so they can buy their way out of teaching, so they can devote themselves to research. And a lot of that grant money, imo, is, well, shall we say, not so wisely spent.

Well, nice to know I'm not a complete idiot. LOL

I wish I went to college but I didn't get any common sense until I as almost 30 years old.