Touchy laptops

[Qqmike]

Wireless worked fine with the 64-bit.
ZyXEL C1000Z, a new Centurylink wireless router/switch/wireless/modem unit. I use it fine for my 12.04 desktop Kubuntu.

But even then, the touchpad was very touchy. I would just hover the pointer over something, and without lift-clicking it would select and open the item. Not good. A real nuisance.

I really don't know how to assess this laptop for Kubuntu!

I tried running movie files, but could get Muon to find the plug-ins, like kubuntu-restricted-extras (I use that on my desktop PC), of flashplugin-installer (which I also use on my desktop).

If this Lenovo doesn't do the trick WHAT would? Without installing, I'm not sure how you can know.

Btw, as probably you guys know, you install Linux and sometimes the laptop maker won't support the laptop (like Lenovo).

[dibl]

Mike I'll give my two cents' worth. I am 3 for 3 successful with used Dell laptops running a Linux OS. Two of them were "hand me downs" and one, a Latitude E6500 with no hard drive and a broken ethernet transceiver, I bought on E-Bay and put a SSD in it. One of the hand me downs, a Vostro 1000, was bought new by my eldest daughter, with XP pre-installed. She used it fairly hard for about 5 years until it began thermal shutdowns pretty regularly. Of course it was full of dust and needed the heatsink re-seated, but by the time I got around to dealing with it, she had bought a replacement and didn't want it back. The other hand me down was when a business shut down and I was given an opportunity to pick through the old laptops after they had the hard drives wiped. That got me a Latitude D620. Bottom line, these three laptops are all happily running Debian and being used by my family. The D620 has been dropped on the floor twice that I know of, and I did have to replace the motherboard due to a failure of the Nvidia GPU. But that only cost $29 via E-Bay. So, no warranty/return worries, not much of an investment of anything but time, and 3 Internet happy browsers and facebook users.

[Qqmike]

dibl, thanks. Maybe now I will now look at Dell.

I'm frustrated. Fact is, could I live with 8.1? Fact is, I'm not real thrilled with how even 8.1 is running on this machine.

Best Buy, again, is real clear about not supporting Linux, and me not installing Linux on it unless I want to risk voiding the 15-day return. Fact is, I could probably get away with it, restoring to factory settings; and a Best Buy salesman agreed. But, well, just but. I may have spent enough time on this decision, leaning toward a return.
I have, however, learned how to get the UEFI boot menu up, showing all choices for booting. Pretty cool, real clean.

Thanks.

[GreyGeek]

....That got me a Latitude D620.

The last laptop I used at work before I retired in 2008 was the D620. It was very impressive then and I'd use it as a server now.

[dibl]

I'm providing some support to guy that runs Win 8.1 on an HP laptop, so I went ahead and got a license and have now migrated my genealogy tools over to 8.1 (on a VMware VM). It is far more usable on the desktop than 8.0 was. Once you get the hang of it, there are really only about 4 or 5 things that are drastically different than Win 7 or Vista or XP. I have the impression that it runs a little faster and lighter than Win 7 ever did, but I haven't actually run any benchmarks.

[Qqmike]

I returned that laptop:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/lenovo-g...specifications

It's an i3 with 4 GB memory, decent graphics. But Windows 8.1 was a dog on it.

This has been a learning experience. HOW does one buy a laptop?! They ("they" being everyone) make it real clear about Linux: you install Linux on it, and you are on your own, no return, no warranty, no service. (I did talk to Lenovo, btw, on this subject, both software and tech departments.) You've got maybe 15 days to test the laptop, make sure it runs OK. So do you take the chance and install Linux, or test it using Windows 8? That's a rhetorical question, of course. (Several people I talk to say they don't care, they wipe Windows off and install Linux from the get-go. Even then, though, you have all those OEM partitions to deal with--do you move/delete them, too?) Then there's the UEFI variable, another risky crap-shoot in the picture for screwing things up. Lenovo, amazingly, had 6 (that's six) partitions already made on the HDD, various back-ups, Windows 8.1 thingers, the EFI System Partition, recovery patitions, etc. If you mess with the HDD, you better know what you are doing, even with Lenovo's one-step recovery button. Other OEMs may not even provide such an option, though. Had 8.1 run pretty good, maybe I could have taken the chance and kept it after 15 days and then tried Kubuntu on it. But 8.1 was a mess. And Microsoft's persistence in harassing didn't help (sign in, sign up, throwing ads at you, requesting passwords, forcing you to link to the cloud, on and damned on). Do I need an i5 + 6 GB RAM to run 8.1? Another rhetorical question. A 64-bit Kubuntu 12.04 Live USB didn't run so good on it, too slow in the live environment, could not fully assess a go/no-go on it that way. (My understanding is that for UEFI, you do need the 64-bit OS option.)

I'm not sure what to do to get a decent, affordable laptop in here.

Actually, I do know what to do, so I think. I guess I'll try to study up on UEFI, try to get real comfortable with it, enough so I'm fooled into thinking I can take full responsibility for the HDD during a testing period. I do not feel it is smart to go back to BIOS+MBR, not with the trend as it seems to be unfolding toward UEFI+GPT.

dibl, your solution sounds good; I'm just not yet so comfortable with "used" or with eBay (have never tried it). My first laptop, and all. But that begs the issue: how does one buy new, off the typical retail shelf? I can build a desktop, even a light NUC or an ASUS Chromebox, http://promos.asus.com/us/chrome-os/chromebox/, but not a laptop.
(Note: I thought at one time that Dell made Linux laptops and even offered a "custom-built" option; though I'm leaning toward ASUS at this point.)

[oshunluvr]

Dell still sells linux laptops last I checked. Maybe they're off again.

No offence, but you seem overly anxious about this undertaking. I've seen you post in the forum many many times and you obviously have a handle on what's required to get linux running and keep it that way. Why all the consternation?

Addressing your above concerns:

1. UEFI is pretty well understood and is not an obstacle other than learning a new way to set up a boot manager. rEFInd will easily replace grub and works better. Steve Riley even wrote a how-to I believe. GPT is such a small change user-wise you won't even notice the difference.

2. Honestly, I've never heard of a retailer voiding a warranty on the hardware because you installed Linux. If you say that's what they told you, I believe that what they said, but I suspect you were being lied to. There's even a Linux topic on the Lenovo sponsored forum. They definitely won't support you getting Linux running, but they can't void the warranty just because you used the computer - at least not here in California.

In the past several times: I simply shrink the windows partition, make sure it boots, then install Linux along side and dual boot. This helps with trouble-shooting also because you can verify a piece of hardware works in Windows so it's not the hardware if it doesn't work in Linux. If a hardware issue crops up: Simply boot to windows and call the support hot-line. If you decide to return the computer, delete the Linux partition and expand the Windows one to fill the hard drive and return - done. The recovery partitions and Windows OS are small enough - and hard drives big enough theses days - it's easy enough to just ignore their presence. Once you're satisfied that Linux is stable and the warranty period is over, delete the windows crap then.

If you're really that paranoid, buy a second hard drive (or a speedy new SSD ) and pull out the factory drive and save it. Then just swap hard drives if windows is needed.

3. EVERY computer is a dog with windows on it - that's not a good yardstick as to whether or not it will be a good Linux laptop. The best thing you can do to select a good laptop for Linux is to search the net for the model you're considering and see if some geek somewhere has blogged about installing Linux on it.

BTW: I wouldn't have bought that laptop either, but only because it has 1366x768 resolution and only 100mbs ethernet. I suppose if you use wifi the ethernet doesn't matter, but you can't upgrade that monitor and I can't tolerate crappy resolution in an HD world. Likely the reason Windows seemed so doggy on it was the 5400 RPM hard drive - another low-end component. A $60 SSD would be 10x faster and use less power.

[Qqmike]

Ha! Excellent, helpful post, oshunluvr. And you're right, I am anxious about this. What timing. I just got off the phone with a friend going through hip replacement soon. Talk about anxious! But I've helped him get lined up with the right bd-cert'd doc to do the right surgery (anterior vs posterior, if you know about these things). Now it's my turn for some anxiety ...

Yeah, you're post is right on. Sounds like the i3 is OK then, in your opinion? Just to get the Ethernet, HDD, and resolution better?

My only anx about the UEFI is that there do seem to be not-very-well-understood gremlins in the issue, esp dual booting with Windows.
http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloa...ootrepair.html

It is conceivable, esp under time pressure, you might get stuck for awhile until you can fix things.

Lenovo rep told me if you use Linux, take your machine to a local repair shop--they don't support it. Best Buy tells me it would void the Lenovo warranty and thus their techs won't touch it. Maybe they don't know what they are talking about, a real possibility.

Thanks for your well-considered post, oshunluvr. Back to the drawing board selecting a laptop, starting with ASUS as a lot of Linux folks seem to look in that direction. Two weeks ago, I found a page with Dell+Linux machines but could not find it yesterday; will try again.

[Qqmike]

http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/deta...ID=MIGR-48NT8D

[oshunluvr]

I've "converted" an HP, Acer, Asus, and 3 Dells all successfully. The only issue I've had is with a cheap Dell Vostro V13 - the battery won't charge unless it's shutdown. Something in the ACPI is blocking the battery from charging while running. It's weird - it runs fine from the charger, runs fine from the battery - just no charging while running. Honestly, it mostly used around the house anyway, so I just tell my wife and daughter to shut it down when they're done using it. Rather than killing a whole day trying to fix the issue, I'm waiting for a magical kernel to fix it for me

Re. Lenovo: I seriously doubt their warranty is voided if you install Linux. Look at all the support the lend Linux users! More likely, that rep was talking out of his rear-end. Obviously, they aren't going to be able to help you with Linux issues, but if the hardware breaks - it's broken, and they have to honor the warranty.

The screen resolution thing is my personal issue. Most, if not all, of the sub-$500 laptops will be 1366x768. One of the reason I don't use laptops unless forced. My tablet has better resolution than that.

[oshunluvr]

I just thought of a fun conversation: Go back to Best Buy, ask the Lenovo rep about Linux again, if he tells you the same thing, respond with "Well, thank goodness I won't be buying Lenovo junk! Can you imagine anyone paying for a computer that breaks just because you install a better operating system than that Windows crap?" Can you imagine the look on his reddening face? Priceless! Better be ready to run just in case! LOL

[Qqmike]

"Most, if not all, of the sub-$500 laptops will be 1366x768." Yes, a reviewer I just read refers to that res as "the standard Windows resolution."

As for conversations, I will defintiely have better ones in the future, with Best Buy, Lenovo tele rep, or whoever. Amazon is great that way. They accomodate your every wish without talking crap.

I'm confidant now I'll get at this. Part of it is a mindset. When you build your own desktop PC and start with bare metal, you know exactly what to expect and how to proceed. If you use Linux, you can run the bare machine on a live thumb drive (I have done so) before installing anything. Even UEFI would be OK, with just its basic ESP, you'd pretty much know how to work with it.

Thanks, again.

[Feathers McGraw]

My only anx about the UEFI is that there do seem to be not-very-well-understood gremlins in the issue, esp dual booting with Windows.
http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloa...ootrepair.html

After hearing about it from Steve I installed rEFInd and really like it, I think you could use the EFI shell to fix boot problems instead of touching boot repair at all.

rEFInd configuration is also straightforward, one of the problems I had with GRUB in the past was that there's too much documentation, and much of it is out of date. Rod's website covers everything I can think of and is really clear and concise.

The UEFI BIOS on this Lenovo laptop does everything I want it to, and is sensibly organised.

As for hardware testing, can't you try Kubuntu on a live CD/USB to see if everything works? The only changes you'd need to make to do that are in the UEFI BIOS, and you could undo those if you needed to. I can see them voiding the warranty if you open it up, but surely not for changing BIOS settings??

[Qqmike]

Feathers, yes, when I end up with the UEFI machine, I believe I will put rEFInd on it, maybe a good idea; and NOW's the time to start getting real familiar with Rod's extensive site ...

I did change BIOS to boot from CD but first had to enable legacy mode (vs UEFI) and disabling Secure Boot. Turned out, I ended up using a live USB instead, anyway.

Thanks.

[dibl]

Mike here's the deal with the used Dells -- believe it or not, there is a youtube video that shows how to disassemble and reassemble every model of Dell laptop. I kid you not -- I've replaced LCD panels, motherboards, and reseated heatsinks, simply by "monkey see monkey do" with the youtube videos. So you don't have to know anything other than how to search youtube to fix 'em.As far as new laptops, if I were in that market, I would save up my nickels for an HP. You can buy directly from HP, and it will take 2 weeks or more while it makes it way from the Far East through U.S. customs and on to your door. The quality is really good, although you'll have to waste some money on the Windows license. The other option for me would be System 76, with no money wasted on the OS. The cost is a bit more, either way, but I believe the hardware quality will be better.