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    #16
    Back in the early 2000's I was given the responsibility of installing a Red Hat Enterprise server at work. IIRC, the initial cost was $1,500 and an additional $750/yr support fee, which guaranteed a response to a email service ticket within 3 working days. Phone support was more expensive. I recieved a cardboard package in RH's red color theme which contained two CDs and a registration number. They were in the pocket of a three ring notebook binder that was about 3-4" thick. It contained complete install instructions, some how-to's and the man pages for about every package in RH at the time. Included was a copy of the GPL, and instructions on where one could find the source code to every pacakge in RH. The Terms Of Service included permission for RH to send a representative to our business location (NE State Office Bldg) to assure themselves that we hadn't installed that single copy of RH on more than one server, which would have been easy to do.

    The only problem I encountered was that tar could not create a backup file that exceeded 2GB. I posted an email support ticket to RH's support site and then began a Google search. Within 20 minutes I had located two solutions to the problem, and implimented the better one. A full three days later, within hours of their 3 day limit, I got an email from RH support that listed those two URLs that I had discovered three days before. With that kind of support, and 50 cents, one can buy a cup of coffee. During the next two years that one service ticket was the only one that was filed.

    I found it especially intriging how RH offered the source code for the server, in order to comply with the GPL. The website they referenced had around 780 or so individual packages that made up the RH Enterprise Server. Each package was an rpm file. When "installed" it left behind a tar file with gz compression. Running the decompression gave a tar file which could be untarred to get the actual source code for THAT ONE FILE. The files could be downloaded only one at a time. What wasn't on the download site were the tools and support files used to build the binaries, and the file hierachy that the tools worked against, and the envrionmental variables and their settings necessary to successfully compile. IOW, every file, tool or what ever that was NOT on the distributed CD.

    While the number of people who have the ability to take such a collection of files and creat a working distro are not rare , it has been done only a few times. It is a LOT easier to activate the source code repositories and download them from there, along with the build-essentials. Despite their efforts to make building a copy of RH from source difficult without violating the spirit of the GPL, several have done so. The most notiable is CENTOS.

    Before my bosses decided in favor of RH I told them that just about any popular Linux distro would make a good server and nearly all of them are free. I also told them that free online support was a good as most paid support. I suggested Debian, Slack or SuSE, which was what I was running at the time. They have a fixation on paid support, and wouldn't consider any distro that didn't offer paid support. Since then they've learned that "paid support" isn't always was its salesmen crack it up to be. My son, who used to be the Oracle admin, dropped Oracle technical network support system in favor of a free forum run by oracle users who help each other, just like Kubuntu users on this forum.
    "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
    – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Feathers McGraw View Post
      They can claim that what they said just means you can't modify and redistribute Ubuntu and still call it Ubuntu, but really they're just trying to put people off altogether.

      Feathers
      After reading most of the articles and links here, that is how it sounds to me, but then again, I'm not a lawyer.

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        #18
        That's interesting! I had no idea they made it so difficult to get the source code. Now there's a company that has good PR!

        I know what you mean with the paid support thing, and I think that goes for lots of other areas in life. When you don't know much about a subject, it feels like a safer bet to pay for a service, even if someone else is offering it for free. A good example is car mechanics... even if you know someone who says they are capable of fixing your car themselves and will do it for free, it feels safer to pay the garage to do it. You may subsequently learn that the garage is full of idiots and your friend knows a lot more, but how can you judge without being an expert yourself?

        Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post
        My son, who used to be the Oracle admin, dropped Oracle technical network support system in favor of a free forum run by oracle users who help each other, just like Kubuntu users on this forum.
        The support on this forum is amazing. We're lucky (all of us, but especially the leechers like myself ) to have such a wide range of users with varied experience and interests. Having learned so much like this, I can definitely say I'll be sticking around when I'm more useful!
        samhobbs.co.uk

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          #19
          Just an observation. If anyone using Ubuntu packages/servers have to agree to this, doesn't this also apply to the rest of the Ubuntu family and their derivatives listed here http://distrowatch.com/search.php?os...&status=Active ?
          Klaatu Barada Nikto

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            #20
            Ummmm

            If GG or SR speak.... folks really ought to pay attention.

            woodsmoke

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              #21
              Originally posted by woodsmoke View Post
              Ummmm

              If GG or SR speak.... folks really ought to pay attention.

              woodsmoke
              +1
              For me that is what I have been doing mostly!

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Feathers McGraw View Post
                ..... When you don't know much about a subject, it feels like a safer bet to pay for a service, even if someone else is offering it for free. .....You may subsequently learn that the garage is full of idiots and your friend knows a lot more, but how can you judge without being an expert yourself?
                One argument my bosses threw at me was that with paid support they had someone to "hold accountable if things don't work out", and that "free" software didn't have any accountability, either. I pointed them to Microsoft's EULA and ToS, making sure that they understood that Microsoft limited their liability to replacing the media if it is defective, but assumed no other finanical or legal liability for using their software, including the statement that they do not guarantee it to be fit for any particular use, etc...., but that didn't stop them from using Microsoft, so why should they balk at using a Linux distro? I also mentioned that using proprietary software prevented us from accessing the source, and that with RH's method of making the source available we were as strapped as if we were using a Microsoft server. If we needed to make changes, and that we were at the mercy of their upgrade treadmill, just like we were with Microsoft software.

                However, when you, as a pointy -haired boss, know nothing about the technical aspects of the area you supervise and go golfing with the marketing account reps, you feel obligated to believe every word they say. Who would lie to a drinking buddy, eh, even if they are marketing people and do not know much more that you but are merely repeating propaganda from the PR department? It is #($*#)$* frustrating to have a boss take the word of a know nothing PR wonk/salesperson with no actual computing experience over your professional opinion. That practice has cost the taxpayers of my state tens of millions of dollars over the last 20 years and put the IT department into virtual straight jackets when it comes to supplying data services to the state. I also observed that they pointy-haired types are masters at setting up the lessor lights to take the fall incase anything goes wrong, which is why I only communicated with my bosses on technical matters via email, so I could have an audit trail of every conversation we held. If they tried to use the phone I'd short-circut the conversation by saying something to the effect that "this is a technical matter and what I am hearing could be different from what you are saying. Send me your idea/recommendation in an email and then we can begin the process of working out what you want in detail and in writing so neither of us will be confused or make assumptions." After a while they caught on and began all discussions with emails.

                I've seen the same problem in corporate America as well, and most of my contracts were rescue cases after the low-baller who "won" the contract failed to deliver.
                Last edited by GreyGeek; Feb 18, 2014, 09:31 AM.
                "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by 67GTA View Post
                  Just an observation. If anyone using Ubuntu packages/servers have to agree to this, doesn't this also apply to the rest of the Ubuntu family and their derivatives listed here http://distrowatch.com/search.php?os...&status=Active ?
                  That link is bad. When I repeat it using the parameters in your URL I do not get any kind of license agreement, only a description and a page hit ranking.
                  "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                  – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post
                    One argument my bosses threw at me was that with paid support they had someone to "hold accountable if things don't work out", and that "free" software didn't have any accountability, either.
                    This reasoning frustrates me, I mean what kind of business plan is that? It's rare with compensation events that anywhere near the actual cost of a mistake is recovered. The only winners when this kind of thing happens are lawyers. Not that I have any particular dislike for lawyers, but it just isn't going to help your business.

                    I think that sometimes, people just want a single person they can ring and shout at when things go pear shaped. I guess with free software that "who's in charge" is more abstract, although there's still a developer you can contact.

                    A smarter move would be to follow the recommendation of your technical staff - I know if it was me I'd work harder to make free software work, just to prove a point. I wouldn't have the same enthusiasm maintaining software that I think is inferior.
                    samhobbs.co.uk

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post
                      That link is bad. When I repeat it using the parameters in your URL I do not get any kind of license agreement, only a description and a page hit ranking.
                      It is a list of all the Ubuntu based distros on Distrowatch. According to Canonical, they should all have to agree to the license because they all use the Ubuntu base and package servers.
                      Last edited by 67GTA; Feb 18, 2014, 02:19 PM.
                      Klaatu Barada Nikto

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                        #26
                        A couple of things to note, just things that popped into my head, and don't necessarily reflect on my own feelings or understanding.

                        1. Does any licensing agreement necessarily mean the exchange of money?

                        2. How many of these derivative distros actually derive an income

                        3. If this was really a serious (non-fud) thing, it would have come out sooner,I think,and from more places.

                        Sent from my Droid DNA using Tapatalk, like that really matters

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Feathers McGraw View Post
                          I think that sometimes, people just want a single person they can ring and shout at when things go pear shaped. I guess with free software that "who's in charge" is more abstract, although there's still a developer you can contact.
                          Then said pointy-haired bosses need to be made aware of fully-supported distributions such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux or SUSE Linux Enterprise.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by claydoh View Post
                            1. Does any licensing agreement necessarily mean the exchange of money?
                            Nope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_license

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by SteveRiley View Post
                              I know one can, but if they are actually asking for licensing, does it involve money changing hands? Is it important if they are or not?

                              None of this thing is clear.

                              Sent from my Droid DNA using Tapatalk, like that really matters

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Claydoh: License != Fee. A License is permission to use something, a fee is payment for something. A company can let you use their name, but protect it's usage (apply rules, etc.) with a license. A company may or may not charge you for this privilege. Whether or not money changes hands is irrelevant to the legal protections and recourse that is retained by the license.

                                Look at "buying" Windows: You don't actually buy anything. You pay them for the privilege (he says sarcastically) of using their licensed product. In effect, you are not a customer but a licensee.

                                Please Read Me

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