Some speculation about numbers

[tek_heretik]

Cavemen Cavepersons started counting around the campfire by looking at their hands and counting their fingers, hence the base set of numbers (10), "there was 'this many' wolves", holding up the appropriate amount of fingers (and thumbs if need be). Now what really perplexed me was the British and their obsession with 12, aka, the dozen, my guess is because of the 12 months of the year and/or 12 hours of the clock (AM/PM), 12 months/12 hours, why not 12 inches, etc. These are the things I think about, it would appear I have waaaaaaaaaaay too much time on my hands, no puns intended, lol, I just like to solve mysteries.

Edit: Not many people know zero, its use and concept didn't always exist, it is speculated it didn't really come in to popular use until around the middle of the last millennium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_zero#History

[perspectoff]

Jake the Peg... with the extra leg

I'm Jake the Peg, diddle-diddle-iddle-um
With my extra leg, diddle-diddle-iddle-um
Wherever I go through rain and snow
The people always let me know:
"There's Jake the peg (diddle-diddle-iddle-um)
With his extra leg!" diddle-diddle-iddle...

The day that I born (oh boy) my father nearly died --
He couldn't get my nappies on no matter how he tried!
'Cause I was born with an extra leg, and since that day begun...
I had to learn to stand on my own three feet --
Believe me that's no fun!

I had a dreadful childhood really -- I s'pose I shouldn't moan...
Each time they had a three-legged race... I won it on me own!
And also I got popular when came the time for cricket --
They used to roll me trousers up
And use me for the wicket!

I was a dreadful scholar -- I found all the lessons hard.
The only thing I knew for sure was three feet made a yard.
To count to ten I used me fingers; if I needed more
By getting my shoes and socks off
I could count to twenty four!

I'm Jake the... [starts counting to himself...]

...to twenty five!

I'm Jake the peg, diddle-diddle-iddle-um
With my extra leg, diddle-diddle-iddle-um
Whatever I did they said was false --
They said "quick march" I did a quick waltz!
And when they shouted at me "put your best foot forward" - but which foot?
I said "it's very fine for you, you only got a choice of two...
But me -- I'm Jake the Peg (diddle-diddle-iddle-um)
With the extra leg!"

The Rolf Harris classic, on You Tube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJleJbn9G6Y

[tek_heretik]

@perspectoff...har har, kind of relevant but cute.

[Buddlespit]

Base 12 counting can be attributed to the number of finger bones in a hand. Your thumb can touch all twelve finger bones while you count. Add to that the lunar cycles in a year and you have humans off and running with a duodecimal system.

This isn't a "British" thing. English speaking cultures appear to be slower in changing to a metric system, which is vastly newer than the duodecimal system.

[tek_heretik]

Base 12 counting can be attributed to the number of finger bones in a hand. Your thumb can touch all twelve finger bones while you count. Add to that the lunar cycles in a year and you have humans off and running with a duodecimal system.

This isn't a "British" thing. English speaking cultures appear to be slower in changing to a metric system, which is vastly newer than the duodecimal system.

Interesting theories, I will take them in to account.

[woodsmoke]

The "english speaking cultures being slow to shift", in all probability, from my observations are "slow to change" not because they are flat earthers or just plain not as sophisticated but rather ....

Becuase they are so successful.

And that success was built, in large part on the use of "technology"....and no...NOT computers, ......the term "technology" in the educationist system of the U.S. now means exclusively "computers".....

No, the technology was, and still is, all of the tools.... wrenches, screwdrivers, saws, hammers, etc. that were used to build and to maintain the infrastructure.

There is a monstorously sized "backlog" of those tools extant in the millions of little "backrooms", the shops, the repair shops, the stores, etc. that blanket the "english speaking" landscape.

And, to the tool users, there is no real compelling reason to pitch a couple of thousand dollars worth of tools to suddenly change to "metric"

The larger "shops" that do not have the tradition of the mechanic owning her/his own tools are now providing both sets!

The change is underway, and not because of a gubbmint mandate but because of a world wide economy, and, it will probably take another fifteen years for the "backwaters" to be put into a situation of having to deal with a buyer who uses only metric and being forced to make the investment.

orrr just retiring and a new person who has "metric" stepping into the vacuum.

woodsoldallhistoolsalongtimeagosmoke

[vw72]

The Ancient Greeks used a foot divided into 12 equal segments. It had to do with the importance of the number 12 in the Ancient World.

[dmeyer]

12 is an incredibly useful number because of the massive number of ways it can be divided. For example it has factors 6,2,3,4,1,12. Ten only has factors 1,10,5,2.

As you can see, as a base for counting 12 is actually superior. The problem is, we use a base 10 math system and one or two base 12 counting systems thus making the base 12 counting sytems seem strange. If we adopted a base 12 system universally we'd actually be a lot better off. What I am saying may seem strange and you might question my sanity but I can assure you, as a mathematician, the base 12 system has many merits over the base 10 system, however changing, will never happen.

Though, in a base 10 world, any base 12 system is strange and terribly clumsy...

And yes the concept of 0 is fairly new and so is the use of Arabic numbers. Imagine trying to do Math with roman numerals? Ouch!

[kubicle]

As you can see, as a base for counting 12 is actually superior

I won't dispute the mathematical merits of base 12, but we'll all be computers soon, and converting binary to base 10 or base 12 is a headache, so we need hexadecimal.

In fact, I'll start claiming my currency is hexadecimal in grocery stores from now on, maybe it'll catch on.

[tek_heretik]

Or we could adopt Hobbit numbers..."eleventy seven" (117), lol. I always got a kick out of that.

@Woodsmoke...this isn't about whether any system makes any race seem backwards or not, just speculation about origins.

@dmeyer...the Romans based there numerical system on multiples of ten did they not?

[dmeyer]

Or we could adopt Hobbit numbers..."eleventy seven" (117), lol. I always got a kick out of that.

I'm a huge fan of Tolkein but honestly, that's about as base ten as it gets. It's really just a language quirk much like people say twenty-three-hundred etc. Still, It could be fun.

@dmeyer...the Romans based there numerical system on multiples of ten did they not?

No, Most definitely not base 10. Quick example with counting to ten.

I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VII, IX,X that is not even remotely base 10. It's far closer to a base 5-10 hyprid at best but increments at the 4/9/40/90/400/900 place because you increment your letter that indicates a swap of base there. However, apart from the limit for not being able to go to millions etc, it's not eve a consistent number system.

A fully adopted proper base 12 system would feel just as comfortable as the decimal system once a person has adapted and best of all, all our maths would still work fine.

[oshunluvr]

Roman numbers are base 10, although derived or influenced from base 5 and base 2 (each number is either 2 or 5 times greater than the previous number) so you might call it a bi-quinary system.

Roman numbers can be broken into powers of 10, just like decimal numbers.

My year of birth for example:

1962=MCMLXII

1  9  6  2
M CM LX II

Roman numbering is not positional (no zero), but still base 10.

2*5 = hands*fingers.

[COLOR=#000000]
I  V  X  L  C  D  M
  *5 *2 *5 *2 *5 *2[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR]

[andystmartin]

The Babylonians used base 60 numbers. Their influence is still seen in the 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour and the 360-degree circle.

[dmeyer]

The Babylonians used base 60 numbers. Their influence is still seen in the 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour and the 360-degree circle.

Degrees is, I think, based on how long it takes the Earth to orbit the same. Esentially the Earth travels by ~1 degree each day. Could be wrong but the concept of degrees being 360 divisions around a circle seems to be have developed independently in many places.

[tek_heretik]

I'm a huge fan of Tolkein but honestly, that's about as base ten as it gets. It's really just a language quirk much like people say twenty-three-hundred etc. Still, It could be fun.

The hobbit thing was just a joke, there is no base numbers in levity.

Aside from that, I think I've created a monster with this thread, lol. I'm sticking with cavepersons and the ten fingers thing, now what perplexes me is when they started vocalizing numbers, ooo, ooo ooo, ooo ooo ooo, lol.