stinkin' carpel tunnel

[Tom_ZeCat]

That seems a rather narrow point of view to me. It's like saying I should not wear a jacket because I don't have a thermometer to tell me it's cold. "The market has spoken", Micro-soft is best because it's more popular, we can measure that.

Much good and bad has come from science based medicine and alternative. The US is capitalistic. The Medical industry is for profit as is everything else. They see Medicare and insurance and frightened patients as an endless source of money. Not sustainable is it.

There are "alternative medicines" that work. Mainstream medical hates this because it may take some business from them. Yes, science based medicine is selling products and services just like the hawkers and quacks. Much of medicine is designed to treat symptoms rather than causes. There is no profit in preventing illness. There is as much scamming in the mainstream as alternatives. Drugs are oversold and supplements are oversold.

I'm not anti medicine. If I need medical help I will get it. There is a lot of conflicting info out there but the more informed we are the better equipped to make informed decisions. If I decide an alternative would be better for me I'm in.

Good health to you.
Ken.

I'm a proponent of ending for profit medicine. I'm all for the scientific method. It beats the pants off superstitious guessing for discovering truth. However, I agree with you that our Ferengi-style for profit medical system creates conflicts of interest that leads to the pushing of some treatments that may not be the best or may not be needed. Some alternative medicine is quackery. I'm completely convinced that things like magnetic therapy, crystals, and voodoo are nonsense. However, other naturally occurring substances are of value. I have absolutely no doubt that Marijuana is an effective treatment for nausea because it worked for me. I had the flu and the meds the doctor gave me weren't helping so much, but the Marijuana did. It also helped me when I had an eye operation. I felt like my eyes were on fire. I was in so much pain! The opiate-based pills weren't helping me so much, but the Marijuana did. IMO the states that have legalized it for medicinal purposes (or even recreational) are doing right. The medical industry doesn't like that because it will hurt their profits (unless they get smart and produce Marijuana themselves). Some are touting Marijuana as a cure-all for everything, and I think that's nonsense, but I'm certain it's useful for treating nausea, eye pain, and other types of pain.

Another natural treatment is psilocybin mushrooms, also known as Magic Mushrooms. There's an entire online community that uses these to treat chronic cluster headaches and migraines. I haven't tried the treatment myself, but know others who have. The mushrooms make a person hallucinate, but then, if the treatment is successful, the person is headache free for a long period of time, anywhere from 3 to 6 months.

I have no doubt if the scientific method were applied to test the value of Marijuana treatments and Psilocybin ones, we would see proof of their value. Yet many states are still complete Nazis about Marijuana, and all states are about mushrooms. It's also an issue of freedom. Even if these substances were not effective treatments, a person should be allowed to grow them and use them. It's your life and your choice.

[Detonate]

I know several people who have had successful surgery for carpal tunnel. Unlike my surgery for spinal stenosis to relieve pressure on my sciatic nerve which was unsuccessful, and I ended up with more pain after the surgery.

Left me with having to use more drugs after the surgery than before. Soon I will have a Spinal Chord Stimulation device implanted to see if I can get some relief from that.

[Tom_ZeCat]

I know several people who have had successful surgery for carpal tunnel. Unlike my surgery for spinal stenosis to relieve pressure on my sciatic nerve which was unsuccessful, and I ended up with more pain after the surgery.

Left me with having to use more drugs after the surgery than before. Soon I will have a Spinal Chord Stimulation device implanted to see if I can get some relief from that.

So sorry to hear that. Believe me, I understand pain. I've had chronic back pain and knee pain for years. People at work haven't always been understanding or accommodating about it. When I dropped something on the floor, but was in too much pain to pick it up, I asked someone to pick it up for me, explaining that I was in too much pain to do so. Instead of helping, she gave me an earful about supposedly being lazy. Pain just sucks. So do mean people.

[dibl]

Neither of these treatments is supported by reliable evidence.

Chiropractic is one great big sham.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/.../chiropractic/

Similarly, reflexology is crap. Not one shred of evidence supports the existence of qi in the body.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...erence-here-2/

Really, there is no such thing as "alternative medicine." There is medicine that works, and there is everything else.

I'm 100% in agreement with this -- but I think it is incomplete, because it fails to consider the "mind over evidence" effect. For example, there is one female family member in my household who regularly gets a chiropractic adjustment, which she pays for with her own hard-earned cash because it is not an insurance-covered procedure, and then she actually* feels better for the following week.

* There is no winnable argument with a person who believes they feel better. If they say they do, they do.


My other observation about "treatments": I'll soon be 63, and have suffered the typical ailments of a fairly active person in 20th century America, with a lot of commuting to work in the middle of life (which is now thankfully behind me). While demonstrating break-dancing to my elementary-age daughters one day, I badly sprained my back, and suffered recurring lower back pain/spasms. I remember one morning doing some kind of hunched over crab-walk across the parking lot from my car to my office -- I could not stand up straight and walk, it hurt so bad. But I never had any "treatment" performed on it, and eventually the bouts of pain and spasms just stopped -- it hasn't hurt in a least 5 years as far as I can recall. I also had some painful bouts of sciatica during those years -- I assume it was related to the lower back issue. The sciatica also has not returned in at least 5 years. Similarly, about four years ago I went through a period of dizzy spells, which got scary at times when driving or operating equipment. They scanned my head, tested my blood, and couldn't find anything wrong. After about a year, the spells ceased and have never recurred. In the past 18 months, I developed a daily headache that would start shortly after noon and run into the night, that had me eating ibuprofen and acetaminophen like crazy. I thought it had a dental cause and had my dentist do X-rays and tests, and she even sent me to a root-canal guy who did electrical tests to see if the nerves were intact, and they couldn't find anything. CT scan was negative. The doc thought it was something about my sinuses, so I had "Waters View" X-rays done, and they didn't show anything wrong either. About 3 months ago I suffered a fairly minor, but scary case of detached retina, and it was repaired by a retinal surgeon with a laser treatment. Since then, I have not had any of the daily headaches. I have no idea whether or how that flashing green laser had anything to do with the source of the headaches, but there you have it.

My point is, the human body has remarkable self-restorative power if it is allowed time to heal itself. I think there is a strong inclination in the medical community to intervene and "treat", and I think most Americans are convinced that there is an available treatment for every malady. But as Detonate says, all too often, the treatment turns out to be worse than the condition, or else useless (but still very expensive).

Today's two cents worth.

[Snowhog]

Chiropractic as 'medicine' -- no. As 'therapy' -- for certain conditions, yes.

Chiropractic practitioners who profess that they are providing 'alternative medicine' are being untrue. I won't say that today, there aren't chiropractic 'frauds' out their, but there are many reputable practitioners.

My 'balanced'

[Qqmike]

My 2 cents ...
http://www.etsy.com/listing/13050696...Fcqf4AodVQ0A6w

What SteveRiley says in post #11 may be scientifically more accurate than not, it may be 100% accurate. But, along with some of you, I now believe--at age 64 and with much experience, mine and others, under my belt--that there is more to the story. dibl, very well-said post #19, I completely agree with you and have had similar experiences (oh, the eye thing, huh? you met the retina guys; surprisingly, not that uncommon after 60).

Mainstream medical science does some wonderful things, no question about it: many surgeries work like magic, emergency-room medicine is wonderful, vaccinations save lives. But people don't realize how limited clinical practice can be for MANY health conditions. Sometimes, it truly is a case of "practicing medicine"--practicing on YOU, trial and error style, until a proposed treatment works. Sometimes, nothing works. And side effects, something you learn about as you age and encounter more difficult diagnoses. Side effects of medicines and of surgeries can be overwhelmingly risky. Many medical protocols cure nothing, but they DO buy more time for the patient. After all, that's what it is all about, buying time, buying enough time to get you by until death strikes. If you are 75, have a major health problem, and medical science can't cure it but can do something for you that should last 10 years (perhaps with repeated "treatments"), well, that might be enough, and medical science can be said to have succeeded. In fact, if you are 65 and can buy 10 years, perhaps advances in medical science may have a better treatment by the time you are 75.

As for so-called "alternative" treatments, well maybe that's a bad term to use, gotten a bad rap. Fact is, there are many healing modalities around the world that are not mainstream Western medicine. An extreme example is the Shaman. Western Europeans have the same science we (USA) do, but in many cases they apply if far more conservatively. Some of these things appear to "work," some don't. What do we mean by "work" well? Perhaps by making the patient FEEL better; perhaps by helping the patient accept his condition better (and so go on to live out his life without worry); and perhaps by triggering the patient's own immune/self-healing systems to work, and perhaps by virtue of the placebo effect certain healing modalities may actually heal. To be an FDA certified medicine, the manufactured chemical must only beat the placebo effect with a certain margin; and placebos have been reported to have an effectiveness as high as 30% or more. At the same time, you should be extremely cautious of any "alternative" treatments, and do your own research on them before proceeding.

Here's another thing to try for yourself, an eye-opener. Say you get a challenging diagnosis. Take it home and research it, do so beyond the level of reputable sites such as eMedicine, WebMD, Mayo, nih, et. al. Go to the original (professional, peer-reviewed) research articles. Read them, read them carefully, read them twice. In MANY cases you will be shocked to find that "they" (the medical experts) don't know what is going on or what works to stop it. They may have a list of possibilities, a list of things to try, with a corresponding list of probabilistic prognoses and corresponding downsides (side effects), but that's all they may have for many disease conditions: They simply do not yet have enough answers.

An interesting subject, one I have looked into with some depth. At the current stage of advancement in medical science, 2013, while the doctors do have some proven protocols, they really have very little clue for many things; and it is best to view the doctor as one possible healer, a partner in problem-solving, and a resource that can help you gather some data (by ordering scans, blood tests, and so on).

[Qqmike]

To modify my in-depth post above re modern medicine, here's a better ref re the 2 cents, for the not-numismatically inclined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-cen...States_coin%29

[SteveRiley]

There are "alternative medicines" that work. Mainstream medical hates this because it may take some business from them. Yes, science based medicine is selling products and services just like the hawkers and quacks.

No. Treatments that have been proven to work, in randomized controlled double-blind trials, receive the moniker "medicine." Treatments that have not been proven to work are not medicine. And that's it. Proven treatments have undergone years of study and trial, and often even have science-based design. Quacks and hawkers, because they are selling crap that actually has no treatment capability, don't have to worry about this. For that reason alone, you should stay away from their garbage.

Much of medicine is designed to treat symptoms rather than causes.

Really? How about my hernia repair, which treated the cause of an abdominal protrusion? How about antibiotics and antivirals, which treat causes by killing infectious micro-organisms? How about the cast placed around my daughter's ankle after she was struck by a car, which treated the cause of the pain in her leg?

In fact, guilt for proffering symptomatic treatment properly lies with "alternative medicine" practitioners, and for three reasons. One, they aren't trained nearly as well as MDs, and can't perform wide-ranging investigations. Two, they usually lack prescribing power. And three, a practitioner skilled in any particular treatment is likely to view his/her specialty as the one true treatment for all. Homeopathy, chiropractic, reflexology, reiki, acupuncture, naturopathy are all guilty of this. If any of them had a shred of evidence, they'd be called "medicine," without any modifiers. But they haven't, and they aren't. Think about that.

Medicine ("allopathic," if you must, but what a stupid word) rarely gives up at just the symptom. Your doctor will ask questions when you present with a fever, for example, and select a treatment based on your answers -- one that is geared toward the most obvious cause. Your sore throat is cultured, and if a certain kind of bacteria is present, you will be prescribed a particular antibiotic -- cephalexin for strep throat, if that's the cause of your pain. The pain in your abdomen is investigated to find the cause -- no doctor I know would simply slap a few oxycodone in your hand and bid you farewell, because you could have an inflamed appendix. Doctors routinely seek causes and prescribe treatments based on causes. Different causes, different treatments.

There is no profit in preventing illness. There is as much scamming in the mainstream as alternatives. Drugs are oversold and supplements are oversold.

Your first sentence is favorite shibboleth, but fails to stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise, there'd be no cures for anything. Your second and third sentences, while true, do not change the fact that medicine works, and everything else does not. In fact, such misdirections weaken your argument -- as did your reference to how medicine is funded in the US, which is not part of the argument I'm making.

I'm not anti medicine. If I need medical help I will get it. There is a lot of conflicting info out there but the more informed we are the better equipped to make informed decisions. If I decide an alternative would be better for me I'm in.

Google and Wikipedia are lousy substitutes for a trained medical physician. Unless you have similar training, you are in no position to evaluate whether a non-medicine treatment is better for you. "Works for me" is not science: the plural of anecdote is not data.

What do we mean by "work" well? Perhaps by making the patient FEEL better; perhaps by helping the patient accept his condition better (and so go on to live out his life without worry)

Palliative care absolutely has its place in medicine. Some causes simply can't be treated. Symptomatic treatment is properly called for -- consider rhinopharyngitis, for example.

perhaps by triggering the patient's own immune/self-healing systems to work, and perhaps by virtue of the placebo effect certain healing modalities may actually heal

While immune "boosters" and "enhancers" mostly don't work, the few that do are largely cautioned against, because an over-active immune system can be quite damaging. The larger issue in your statement hints at the regression to the mean -- for many diseases, the body heals itself after a few days. People want to ascribe curative powers to a sugar pill (whether a placebo or homeopathic, which are really the same thing), when in fact it was simply the body doing what it does.

Fact is, there are many healing modalities around the world that are not mainstream Western medicine. An extreme example is the Shaman.

The origin of a "modality" is another technique for redirecting this argument. In fact, the origin of any particular treatment is orthogonal to whether it works. Many non-mainstream modalities can be characterized as pre-scientific or anti-scientific guessing. Men of medicine draw upon years of education and experience to determine causes and seek treatments. Medicine men don't even have that -- they are truly making wild guesses, within their chosen "one cure for all" specialty; nothing more.

[Detonate]

How does one graduate from the University of Kubuntu Forum

[Qqmike]

"If any of them had a shred of evidence, they'd be called "medicine," without any modifiers. But they haven't, and they aren't. Think about that."

Similarly, if there were a cure for [cancer, diabetes, macular degeneration, congestive heart failure, whatever], well, we would all know about it, all around the world! Even Katie Curric would know about it, even Sarah Palen, even Putin.

Medicine, science, yeah, et cetera. Hard to argue with your logical arguments. Medicine is a branch of science, or something like that, it is a field of study and practice, based on our science. But modern medicine is still very limited in what it can do for many patients, as many patients already know. A simple thing like tendinitis is a most complex thing when the patient presents with it. Yeah, try the standard stuff the doc recommends--hot, cold, rest, bands, physical therapy, and so on. When that fails, try any surgeries they recommend (based on their science)--and be VERY careful with that, it may make it worse or have expected-unexpected risks that their science can't help with. And so on.

A big factor may be the practitioner, the medical doctor, the M.D. you see. They are human beings, like the rest of us, they are not all equal in their knowledge, their application of the science, or their bedside manner (credibility, persuasiveness, confidence).

And a factor is the patient: just realize that modern medicine, based on whatever science we have, does not have answers for every disease; and even when it does have an answer, you may not like it because the outcome may fall short of your notion of satisfactory and/or because of downside risks/side effects you are unable to accept or tolerate.

And, I do agree with S-R and dibl that for many things, the body will heal itself with care and time.

S-R, you picked an easy one--a hernia! Pretty standard stuff nowadays, many patients not even requiring an overnight stay in the hospital, simply outpatient. Even many abdominal surgeries are outpatient or at most a one-night stay.

[Snowhog]

How does one graduate from the University of Kubuntu Forum

What!? Don't you know? The UoKF is just like the 'Hotel California'. You can 'checkout' anytime you like, but you can never leave.

[Detonate]

I see. That's like many of the HS teachers I have known, that although they would never admit to this, the reason they became teachers is because the best years of their lives where high school, and the only way they can stay in high school is to become a teacher. This is based on my many years of social interaction with these teachers because my wife was one.

[HalationEffect]

And three, a practitioner skilled in any particular treatment is likely to view his/her specialty as the one true treatment for all. Homeopathy, chiropractic, reflexology, reiki, acupuncture, naturopathy are all guilty of this.

Heh, proof of the old saying: "When the only tool in your toolkit is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail".