I am ashamed.

[Qqmike]

re Steve, "Dibl characterized my feelings well: my integrity was used." Well put, I would agree he hit the nail on the head there. Somehow I missed dibl's post.

As for the commentary on my commentary, as usual, S-R, you have researched your sources better than I have, and you make good points, S-R and tek_heretik. However, on one important point, I definitely do not see Snowden as any type of hero, I'm not even close to seeing that. There must be other ways he could have made his point (re our domestic privacy issues) without international embarrassment or revealing some of our international intelligence activities.

[bsniadajewski]

re Steve, "Dibl characterized my feelings well: my integrity was used." Well put, I would agree he hit the nail on the head there. Somehow I missed dibl's post.

As for the commentary on my commentary, as usual, S-R, you have researched your sources better than I have, and you make good points, S-R and tek_heretik. However, on one important point, I definitely do not see Snowden as any type of hero, I'm not even close to seeing that. There must be other ways he could have made his point (re our domestic privacy issues) without international embarrassment or revealing some of our international intelligence activities.

There may be other ways he could have made his point, but are they better ways? Maybe a little embarrassment is all we need to change our ways and be humbled so we don't get too full of ourselves as Americans. Besides, haw many of our country's "secrets" should be (top) secret anyway?

[perspectoff]

I seem to remember Microsoft opening/giving their OS code to China when China threatened to ban Microsoft from China, too.

Is it any wonder the Chinese are happily probing every control system in the US that uses Windows?

These days nearly 66% of servers worlwide are Linux-based (of which 57% are Debian/(K)Ubuntu) and 34% are Windows-based. There's a reason for that ratio, and I predict as info like this becomes more widely circulated, the Windows proportion of servers will drop to zero.

[SteveRiley]

I seem to remember Microsoft opening/giving their OS code to China when China threatened to ban Microsoft from China, too.

Is it any wonder the Chinese are happily probing every control system in the US that uses Windows?

These days nearly 66% of servers worlwide are Linux-based (of which 57% are Debian/(K)Ubuntu) and 34% are Windows-based. There's a reason for that ratio, and I predict as info like this becomes more widely circulated, the Windows proportion of servers will drop to zero.

You may want to rethink -- or perhaps rephrase -- your argument. The points you make about Windows imply that had China not seen the source code, then they would have had more difficulty attacking computers running Windows. The points you make about Linux imply that it is somehow safer. But yet, the source code for Linux-based operating systems is widely available. By extension, then, your argument should be that the Chinese are attacking Linux, too. I don't think this is what you intend to say, but it's certainly one way to read your post.

Of note: US Embassy cable showling link between source code access and recruitment of attackers. See sections 50 through 56.

[SteveRiley]

However, on one important point, I definitely do not see Snowden as any type of hero, I'm not even close to seeing that.

Because of what he did or how how he did it? If the former, then which in your mind is the greater sin: illegal government activity or revelations of secrets documenting the same?

There must be other ways he could have made his point (re our domestic privacy issues)

Of course: he should have simply dumped everything at once, simultaneously, with multiple news organizations. Then the story would have only been about the NSA's behavior. This is the largest of Snowden's mistakes. Now, instead, the story is about him, which plays well into the hands of his detractors and government sympathizers (that is, the weak American press).

[HalationEffect]

Even this discussion has been diverted from "Your privacy is an illusion!" to "Ed Snowden: hero or villain?"... why do people seem to care so little about the former and so much about the latter?

[Qqmike]

S-R, "... which in your mind is the greater sin: illegal government activity or revelations of secrets documenting the same?"

Well, I must admit that I am not that upset about USA "illegal gov't activity" per se.
I am upset about revelations of US intelligence activities to the world community (even though I venture to guess that all countries "do it" or some versions thereof).

As for my statement re " ... keep the crazies from destroying what little civilization we as a species have managed to build up," you said, keenly :-) "It's likely true that to do this effectively requires a slightly different kind of crazy."

Yeah, maybe so. Maybe in the short run. As yet, I'm just not that upset--or surprised--by what is claimed the US gov't has done here as revealed in this Snowden case.

[SteveRiley]

Even this discussion has been diverted...

Grrr! You're correct, of course.

Therefore...

Well, I must admit that I am not that upset about USA "illegal gov't activity"...

For the love of $DEITY, why not, man? Have you lost your mind?

[dibl]

He's a 29-yo limp-d*k, loser, who clearly has personal issues (heard him speak? catch his bio?), and needs to be hunted down and tortured and punished until eternity as a full-blown traitor.

Right, Mike.

I'll go you one better --- let him live to be 110, in some third-world authoritarian s&it-hole like Ecuador or Russia, looking over his shoulder 24/7, deprived of liberty, freedom of expression, and anything resembling self-determination. He's earned it.

[Qqmike]

S-R, "Have you lost your mind?" Maybe I'll try that, thanks, and maybe then feel like I fit in better here! ;-)

[Snowhog]

For the love of $DEITY, why not, man? Have you lost your mind?

A gilded cage, however lovely, is still a cage.
An iron fist, even though covered with a velvet glove, is still an iron fist.
Freedom, at the expense of liberty, is not freedom.
Trust, without verification, is a fools paradise.
All that is required for Evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing.

[SteveRiley]

S-R, "Have you lost your mind?" Maybe I'll try that, thanks, and maybe then feel like I fit in better here! ;-)

Just be sure to put in a place where you can find it again.

A gilded cage, however lovely, is still a cage.
An iron fist, even though covered with a velvet glove, is still an iron fist.
Freedom, at the expense of liberty, is not freedom.
Trust, without verification, is a fools paradise.
All that is required for Evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing.

Sentiments shared by one Mr. Edward Snowden, perhaps?

[Snowhog]

“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.” -- Thomas Jefferson

There is of course, always going to be that 'fine line' that separates the two. The difficulty is determining exactly where that line is, and knowing when that line has been crossed -- by either the people or the Government. But I am one (I earnestly hope) that feels that when there is doubt, err on the side of the choice(s) of the people. Governance is a not a thing to be left to it's own devices, without scrutiny by the governed, as doing so will permit it to become a thing which the people who instituted it never envisioned. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance!!

[Buddlespit]

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I never once thought that you, Steve, had anything to feel ashamed of, or to apologize for, other than being cast as the dupe for MS. It happens. Trust in an institution that's been around for a few decades isn't really a bad thing. Hell, from Win3.0 to WinXP, I thought MS was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Stiff upper lip and all that... Hell, take a look at what Canonical and Google (re:Chrome) are selling about you...

I hailed Snowden as a hero of the people, a whistleblower of big brother. But when he continued to leak info about the rest of the stuff the NSA was doing, I think he crossed a line. He went from being a "hero to the people" to a "traitor of his country" because he didn't know when to stop. The US is going to spy on foreign countries, even our friends. It's what countries do. England and Canada are spying on us, we're spying on the Germans, the Israelis are spying on everyone else... Intelligence gathering is how a country stays independent and strong.

But, as my personal freedom is concerned, I'm not happy with the way the American people are so willing to give up freedom in exchange for security. For decades, I've been watching America turn into a welfare state, where people are willing to turn over their freedoms and independence for a handout. I've always found this an insidious ploy to strengthen government and make people dependent on the said government. But after 9-11, people we willing to give up their rights to privacy and rights against warrant-less searches and seizures for the promise of safety and security. This makes me queasy.

And finally. What the NSA was doing, plus the Prism project, wasn't illegal. It was wrong. It was something we should be trying to change. But it wasn't illegal. We, the people, of the United States of America, asked for this. For our security. For our safety. A very small minority of people have been screaming at the tops of their lungs about this for 12 yrs. But since they're a minority and we're safe, nobody cared until someone released the data about the scope of the privacy intrusions. Surprise!

[SteveRiley]

He went from being a "hero to the people" to a "traitor of his country" because he didn't know when to stop.

Compare the amount and kinds of information Snowden has released to the amount and kinds of information Ellsberg released. You'll see that Snowden has released less (so far), and it's not as damaging. Snowden's tactic of dribbling out bits has backfired. Look, even here, where I'd prefer that we focus the conversation on the contents of the releases, I keep having to correct misunderstandings about the guy that are promulgated by the media. Ellsberg did it right.

And finally. What the NSA was doing, plus the Prism project, wasn't illegal. It was wrong. It was something we should be trying to change. But it wasn't illegal.

I'm pretty sure it isn't possible to override the Constitution without a Constitutional Convention or passing an amedment. So far, the Fourth Amedment still stands, battered and bruised though it may be. The EFF and others are planning lawsuits.