Probably the best explanation of why guns are an important part of America

[claydoh]

I wonder why some (or most) of the focus on guns are on the so-called and undefined "assualt weapon", where it seems to to be clear to me that handguns are what should be highly regulated. There are plenty of hunting rifles and shotguns that pack more punch than these testosterone styled jobs. Let all the potheads out of the prison-industrial complex we have and if we want to keep that system going, fill em up with gun violators, with longer sentences.

Now I know that rifles may not be semi-automatic or have large clips or magazines, but look at the armed crimes committed and I venture to say that handguns might just be the popular tool.

I think a good compromise might be stricter handgun regulation of some sort. I also think if the people really wanted to ban all of them, the constitution can always be amended. No one seems to want to do the work. Look at what we did in 1919 with alcohol. Why would this be any more difficult to accomplish?

I will also say, that I really do not care how other countries do things, I seldom if ever criticize how things are done in other places. One of my pet peeves is comparing statistics of a solitary smaller country like Norway to the entirety of the US.

[Snowhog]

First it needs to convince its people that gun ARE bad...

I will agree that we disagree. I don't invalidate your point of view, and I hope that you can at least agree that my point of view, while diametrically opposite yours, is just as valid. We live in different countries.

Guns are intrinsically not 'bad'. They are neither good or bad. They are inanimate objects. Until put into the hands of someone, they just lay there and do nothing. Badness or goodness cannot be attributed to an object.

This is a topic that polarizes people, and that makes it one that has the potential to 'push peoples' buttons. I won't try to sway you (or anyone else) from there point of view, and I hope, that the same courtesy is extended.

[james147]

I will agree that we disagree. I don't invalidate your point of view, and I hope that you can at least agree that my point of view, while diametrically opposite yours, is just as valid. We live in different countries.

Guns are intrinsically not 'bad'. They are neither good or bad. They are inanimate objects. Until put into the hands of someone, they just lay there and do nothing. Badness or goodness cannot be attributed to an object.

I can agree that guns are not inherently bad... I was more arguing that easy access to guns are bad, I do not think the general population has any need to have personal guns. We do have rifle ranges here in the UK, I have no problem with them it when people are allowed to carry them around the street that causes issue.

This is a topic that polarizes people, and that makes it one that has the potential to 'push peoples' buttons. I won't try to sway you (or anyone else) from there point of view, and I hope, that the same courtesy is extended.

I don't think I can agree with this as it doesn't make any sense to me (I mean no offence by this, or anything else I have said).

The very point of an discussion/argument like this is generally to change the way people think, or at least to make them agree with you (which involves them changing their view at least a little or at the very least their understanding). But at least on this forum we can express our points of view like adults and discuss things rationally and with reasoning I have no problem with you tiring to change my point of view if you have good reasoning behind yours.

I understand some of your views on guns, but I do not understand why the general population needs easy/any access to them or why they need to carry them around. Ok, in the US this cannot change over night, but I do think it should change.

PS - I also updated my previous post while you where writing

[tek_heretik]

My $0.02...totally disarming the population scares me, how would we defend ourselves from a government gone very bad?

[Qqmike]

tek_heretik: "... totally disarming the population..."

That would never happen in USA. No way we would give up our guns. (I'm not entirely sure * why * ... I haven't shot mine for some 25 years ...)
But it won't happen. Problem now is how to manage those already out there, some millions of assault rifles, for example. Yes, many have gone elsewhere (e.g., Sud America), but tons are in possession right here in USA.

(Aside: Btw, the NRA ... interesting, isn't it, how a conservative group all of a sudden wants the FEDERAL GOV'T (!) to do something wild, like pay for armed guards in public schools? That's nuts. Notice they didn't say anything about managing types of weapons sold vs types of buyers buying vs education vs mental health support vs anything else.)

[bsniadajewski]

Between two extremes (completely disarming as tek says on one end and everybody having easy access to arms on ther other) there is always a middle ground somewhere, a compromise (something we seem to think is a four-letter word in some places). What Snowhog says back in post #10 would be doable. In fact that sounded like what the Brady Bill had (remember that?).

Note: I work with a bunch of hunters, though I ain't one myself. Political discussions are rare here as I am the only one not right of center.(I consider myself center-left).

[GreyGeek]

http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...-armsquotation

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

The passage is from Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments.


Thomas Jefferson considered it important. He included it in his commonplace book.
http://tjportal.monticello.org/cgi-b...cgi?BBID=17058

BTW, I read recently the gun crimes in Britain have gone up over 500% in some places, and drug gangs using weapons are getting so bad that the police are patrolling those areas armed with sub-machine guns.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...irst-time.html
Notice also that in addition to the machine gun the Bobby is also carrying a side arm. Glock?

From a gun control point of view that's pretty bad because a determined gang could ambush the patrol and take those automatic weapons, ergo, the Bobbys should be unarmed. But, give somebody a machine gun and he'll find a way to have fun with it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...naway-COW.html

[whatthefunk]

My $0.02...totally disarming the population scares me, how would we defend ourselves from a government gone very bad?

This is such an outdated argument. It belongs in the 18th century. Your government has tanks, nukes, an airforce, aircraft carriers, special forces units that can put a bomb on a small x on your forehead, and thousands of kinds of arms that are illegal. You have a handgun and a hunting rifle. You are going to loose. There is absolutely no question that you are going to loose.

Also, right now, the US government is in a pretty horrible state of affairs. The average voter has way less say than lobbyists and corporations. Wheres the armed citizens response?

[whatthefunk]

http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...-armsquotation



The passage is from Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments.

Thomas Jefferson considered it important. He included it in his commonplace book.
http://tjportal.monticello.org/cgi-b...cgi?BBID=17058

Not relevant. 200 year old quotes do not apply today...at all. Should we also quote some of our founding fathers regarding slavery?

[NickStone]

http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...-armsquotation



The passage is from Cesare Beccaria's Essay on Crimes and Punishments.


Thomas Jefferson considered it important. He included it in his commonplace book.
http://tjportal.monticello.org/cgi-b...cgi?BBID=17058

BTW, I read recently the gun crimes in Britain have gone up over 500% in some places, and drug gangs using weapons are getting so bad that the police are patrolling those areas armed with sub-machine guns.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...irst-time.html
Notice also that in addition to the machine gun the Bobby is also carrying a side arm. Glock?

From a gun control point of view that's pretty bad because a determined gang could ambush the patrol and take those automatic weapons, ergo, the Bobbys should be unarmed. But, give somebody a machine gun and he'll find a way to have fun with it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...naway-COW.html

I would question where you get your facts from about British Police. The Sun newspaper is a very right-wing publication just like the Daily Mail newspaper (and a few others).

Not true that Police patrol streets (or certain sections of communities) with machine guns or even have side arms. But what is true is that there are armed response units which are called to any situation where the assailant is believed to be armed. There are some "British Bobbies" that carry "tazors" for use against aggressive individuals.

I would also like to point out that here in the UK, gun ownership is not illegal it is just very strictly controlled.

[NickStone]

having read all the comments here I find it absolutely disgusting that not one person has expressed sadness regarding the victims of the latest mass shootings to hit The USA and not only that but the pro-gun lobby are using it as a way of justifying the existence of guns for everyone. Using stories to try and justify the importance of carrying fire arms is blatant propaganda by the pro-gun lobby whilst at the same time dishonours the memories of the victims of this current crime.

Shame on you!

[tek_heretik]

This is such an outdated argument. It belongs in the 18th century. Your government has tanks, nukes, an airforce, aircraft carriers, special forces units that can put a bomb on a small x on your forehead, and thousands of kinds of arms that are illegal. You have a handgun and a hunting rifle. You are going to loose. There is absolutely no question that you are going to loose.

Also, right now, the US government is in a pretty horrible state of affairs. The average voter has way less say than lobbyists and corporations. Wheres the armed citizens response?

Holy moly whatthefunk...what I meant by government gone bad was a Big Brother type situation which could easily be around the corner (starting with the Internet being locked down and monitored), the 2008 global DEPRESSION (recession my arse) was the turning point, with all do respect, you better stick your schnoz over a strong brewed cup of java and take a huge sniff, the Chinese are inches away from OWNING the US, they have clearly shown they are not nice or fair, watch some documentaries or turn on the news once in a while, please. As for a government nuking their own people, really? Come on. Driving tanks in to towns, yeah, I can see, but soldiers (or Big Brother goons as I call them) would still have to do some on foot combat, that is where the personal arms come in, the last stand. It makes no difference what year we are in, the fundamentals are the same, fight your oppressor or die.

[tek_heretik]

having read all the comments here I find it absolutely disgusting that not one person has expressed sadness regarding the victims of the latest mass shootings to hit The USA and not only that but the pro-gun lobby are using it as a way of justifying the existence of guns for everyone. Using stories to try and justify the importance of carrying fire arms is blatant propaganda by the pro-gun lobby whilst at the same time dishonours the memories of the victims of this current crime.

Shame on you!

God bless the souls that were tragically taken. =(

With all due respect Nick, this thread was a discussion about guns and RESPONSIBLE ownership, not schizophrenics going on a murderous rampages, here in Canada, there are all kinds of forms and checks you have to go through to obtain a gun, the slightest history of violence, mental defect, etc, you can be denied. I watched a documentary about how EASY it is to obtain a gun in the US, gun store owners skirting well placed rules (on hidden cam) for a couple of bucks.

[HalationEffect]

BTW, I read recently the gun crimes in Britain have gone up over 500% in some places

Without the raw figures, I find that number very suspicious. After all, if there was, say, 1 gun crime committed in 1991 - 2000, and then 6 gun crimes in 2001 - 2010... that would be a 500% increase from one decade to the next. It's easy to spin information by presenting it in a certain way. Saying that gun crime had increased from 1 incident per decade to 6 incidences would barely be worth a bored shrug, but saying it has increased by 500% sounds a lot more scary.

Sure, the UK may be getting more violent, but you're still forty times more likely to be shot and killed in the US - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

Annual firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in the US: 10.2
Annual firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population in the UK: 0.25

That's why I feel safer being unarmed in the UK than I would feel being armed in the US...

[claydoh]

having read all the comments here I find it absolutely disgusting that not one person has expressed sadness regarding the victims of the latest mass shootings to hit The USA and not only that but the pro-gun lobby are using it as a way of justifying the existence of guns for everyone. Using stories to try and justify the importance of carrying fire arms is blatant propaganda by the pro-gun lobby whilst at the same time dishonours the memories of the victims of this current crime.

Shame on you!

Really
Who the heck are you to determine when where and how any of us have expressed our horror and sadness at the school shooting? I'm sorry I didn't express my emotions, questions and pain here in this Linux forum. I'm sorry.

Shame on you for assuming anyone who argues for firearms rights fits a stereotype , for assuming we do not care.

I am disgusted with both the NRA who do not speak for everyone, as well as those who think that a wholesale ban will do anything.

Shame on all of us for not actually dealing with things.



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