Fake wine?

[Qqmike]

Fake Wine?

In other threads at KFN, playing the skeptic, I have expressed playful, proletarian cynicism about all the faux wine tasting going on among hobbyists these days (while respecting some 'genuines' like our oshunluvr). But I never even thought about counterfeit rare wines until seeing a news blurb on it this afternoon. And, come to think about it, doing so would be far easier than in other collectible markets such as rare coins, for example. Googling produces a ton; here's one, grabbed at random:

Collectible Scams
An Insider's Guide to Counterfeiting Wine

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...erfeiting-wine

Interesting. On the show I watched, some billionaire had spent millions on fakes, including a $60,000 bottle.

Now the REAL question might be ... If the typical buyer/collector WERE to open a bottle, would a difference be spotted--or even suspected--upon tasting?

Btw, is there anything really wrong with these $8, 1.5 L bottles of Carlo Rossi Paisano I keep on hand (actually ..... in the frig capped with a screw top ...)? ;-) Great antioxidants. Especially as a chaser after downing 1, 2, or 3 more toxic beers.

[luckyone]

There are some very good $8-$15 wines. I have a bottle of Fat Bastard Cabernet Sauvignon that goes for 8 or 9 dollars. Chill it in the refrigerator. Take it out 30 minutes before drinking.

I've found that the first sip of almost any wine is kind of a 'throwaway' as the second and later sips are the real taste experience. Just me I'm sure. But I found out by not drinking a wine after only one sip.

[benny_fletch]

There are some very good $8-$15 wines.

Agreed! Two of my favorite affordable wines are Root: 1 (Cabernet Sauvignon, but all of them are good) and Marques de Caceres (Crianza). I am sure really expensive wine is good, but my palate may not be sophisticated enough to truly appreciate them.

[oshunluvr]

I have said many times: Anyone can buy a great bottle of wine for $100. It takes work to find a great bottle for $10. Personally, if you spend $1000 or more for a bottle and can't tell it's counterfeit - well, you get what you deserve. This is the real reason why the cork is presented when pulled - for review of the wine makers stamp on the side of the cork, not for some snob to sniff it. If the wine is "corked" the bottle reveals it, not the cork.

The key is not the price, but knowing first your palette and then doing the work to find those wines which are more likely to fit it. As any experienced wine drinker knows; your palette will grow as your experience does and thus what you deem as drinkable will too.

Fun tip: When you're in the grocery store looking for a bottle - look at the bottle. A wine maker bent on making a great wine will spend more on the container. The weight and height of a bottle is in direct proportion to the wine maker's belief in his product. I.e. the more expensive the bottle, the better the wine. The current fav in our house sells for $8.99 at the Ralph's grocery store. It's an old vine Zin bottled in 2009 by Van Ruitten and is every bit as good as the $60 bottles in my cellar. And yes - it's in a nice heavy and tall bottle.

Once in the 90's I was talking about spending $100 on a bottle of 1967 Chateau Clerc Milon. I was asked if it was ten times better than a $10 bottle. The answer, of course, was no. However, it had properties that no $10 bottle could match. But if your palette wasn't ready to experience those subtleties it would have been a waste (it wasn't ).

Thanks for the props, Mike. I think there's nothing wrong with those bottles of yours. I might not want them so cold, but if that suits you - fantastic.

A final note: The proper glass is THE most important factor in wine drinking. Which glass suits you will vary with the wine and your palette. Have at least 3 different sizes/shapes for reds alone and learn to swirl to enhance the wine. Clockwise swirls will bring the fruit forward along with the organic features of the vineyard. Counter-clockwise will bring forward the production qualities (barrel, aging, etc.). In simple terms if the wine is too fruity, swirl counter-clockwise. If it lacks fruit, swirl clockwise.

Now off to my favorite wine bar with my lovely wife...

[Qqmike]

About the maker's stamp on the cork and the quality of the bottle, according to the reports, 'they' are even counterfeiting those (corks and bottles), some fakes being better than others; but I suspect many "experts" might not catch the subtle differences.

[oshunluvr]

Yeah, that's were they have to go to fake it. I totally agree - most of those experts are full of it.

Even if I had the scratch, I wouldn't go that deep for a wine. I'd rather travel in the small cellars all over France and find the best for me and mine, you know?

[SteveRiley]

Clockwise swirls will bring the fruit forward along with the organic features of the vineyard. Counter-clockwise will bring forward the production qualities (barrel, aging, etc.). In simple terms if the wine is too fruity, swirl counter-clockwise. If it lacks fruit, swirl clockwise.

Uh, how do the particular properties in question "know" which direction is which, and thus bring themselves "forward"?

[Qqmike]

SteveRiley, YOU are the scientist here at KFN. The NEWer quantum mechanics. Spins, positive, negative, particles at Universe extremes sensing their diametrics ... you know, all that stuff.

[NickStone]

...Clockwise swirls will bring the fruit forward along with the organic features of the vineyard. Counter-clockwise will bring forward the production qualities (barrel, aging, etc.). In simple terms if the wine is too fruity, swirl counter-clockwise. If it lacks fruit, swirl clockwise.

What a load of #%$@ !

[Qqmike]

Easy there, nickstonefan. Let's not forget the power of belief--and THAT was already discussed in a recent religious discussion here.
;-)

Giving oshunluvr a hard time on a windy day.

[oshunluvr]

What a load of #%$@ !

I would have thought so too except I had a tasting and wine education session with one of about 300 Master Sommelier's that exist and I and my wife experienced it first hand. It does require the correct glass for the varietal and a wine in good enough condition to impart it's properties. As a matter of proof I can only point to the 6 years I served and sold wine at my establishment and the hundreds of people I did this with as an experiment while they were at my bar.

Obviously, when I'm next in Yorkshire, Nick and I will be having a nice Ale down to Pub. Oh, and the word Nick meant to type there was "rubbish"

I only brought it the two main things to know (glassware and the swirl trick) in case anyone reading this thread was a cheap wine drinker. These are the only two things I'm aware of that can make a $10 bottle taste like a $50 one.

[NickStone]

Well if your ever down my way I'll get you a pint a'Ale

[lcorken]

Some years ago I watched an episode of Columbo where he solved a murder by showing that a wine collectors wine seller had overheated thus ruining his wine.

I generally go for the cheap wine as I can't tell the difference and am, well, cheap.

I did notice this summer after a heat wave that my favorite wine was unusually bad. I assumed it was the victim of a truck traveling from California to Oregon in 100 plus degree weather.

Thus, expensive wine would seem risky even if it is real.

Ken.

[Qqmike]

Think I already mentioned (another thread) my college years and through my roommate Pierre (from wealthy British-French family, London-Paris) my introduction to many things--wines, cheeses, other foods and drink. I can only recall now a few (from age 18-19, college years), like Dubonnet (wine-based aperitif), Médoc (AOC wines), various from the Liebfraumilch, Cabernet Sauvignon, Beaujolais (the French Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée wines). I made some wine using the usual kits and some grapes and whatever, thought it was not so good (bitter, sharp), but Pierre indicated it tasted pretty good to him, at least as good as many common, average table wines served by everyday French families. All perspective.

Icorken -- I saw that Columbo rerun just a few months ago on an oldies channel, a good episode.

[Snowhog]

Uh, how do the particular properties in question "know" which direction is which, and thus bring themselves "forward"?

I believe it all comes down to the 'physics' of the properties of the special wine quarks.

Table of properties

See also: Flavor (particle physics)
The following table summarizes the key properties of the six quarks. Flavor quantum numbers (isospin (I₃), charm (C), strangeness (S, not to be confused with spin), topness (T), andbottomness (B′)) are assigned to certain quark flavors, and denote qualities of quark-based systems and hadrons. The baryon number (B) is +¹⁄₃ for all quarks, as baryons are made of three quarks. For antiquarks, the electric charge (Q) and all flavor quantum numbers (B, I₃, C, S, T, and B′) are of opposite sign. Mass and total angular momentum (J; equal to spin for point particles) do not change sign for the antiquarks.

First generation

Up

u

1.7 to 3.1

1⁄2

+1⁄3

+2⁄3

+1⁄2

0

0

0

0

Antiup

u

Down

d

4.1 to 5.7

1⁄2

+1⁄3

−1⁄3

−1⁄2

0

0

0

0

Antidown

d

Second generation

Charm

c

1,290 +50 −110

1⁄2

+1⁄3

+2⁄3

0

+1

0

0

0

Anticharm

c

Strange

s

100 +30 −20

1⁄2

+1⁄3

−1⁄3

0

0

−1

0

0

Antistrange

s

Third generation

Top

t

172,900±600 ± 900

1⁄2

+1⁄3

+2⁄3

0

0

0

+1

0

Antitop

t

Bottom

b

4,190 +180 −60

1⁄2

+1⁄3

−1⁄3

0

0

0

0

−1

Antibottom

b

J = total angular momentum, B = baryon number, Q = electric charge, I₃ = isospin, C = charm, S = strangeness, T = topness, B′ = bottomness.

Wine Science. Who'd a thunk!