Empire State Building "shooting"

[whatthefunk]

http://news.yahoo.com/nypd-empire-st...180844387.html

All nine people injured during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were wounded by gunfire from the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.

I know that gun advocates like to think that if everyone had a gun mass shootings wouldnt happen, but I think this shows that they would simply be much worse. Two highly trained police officers took down nine people to get one. What would have happened if a bunch of people in Aurora, Colorado who were half blinded by smoke in a dark theater opened fire?

[claydoh]

Not to advocate any side - I favor a ban on handguns explicitly, but not on rifles, shotguns, etc, but we are failing to notice that despite the news stories of recent times, violent crimes (including gun related deaths) in this country are continuing to drop year after year, while gun ownership sales/ownership does not seem to be decreasing, and seems to be increasing over the years.

The so-called "press" is no longer the fourth estate and is just as corrupted as our political and banking systems, giving us smokescreens that distract us.

[whatthefunk]

Not to advocate any side - I favor a ban on handguns explicitly, but not on rifles, shotguns, etc, but we are failing to notice that despite the news stories of recent times, violent crimes (including gun related deaths) in this country are continuing to drop year after year, while gun ownership sales/ownership does not seem to be decreasing, and seems to be increasing over the years.

Yes, but nobody can prove that the two are related. While violent crime is dropping, the number of cellphones is going up. This doesnt mean that the two are related at all. My guess is that it has absolutely nothing to do with guns and a lot more to do with the fact that there are nearly 2.5 million people in jail in the US and a hell of a whole lot more on probation. In 2008, 1 person out of every 31 was either in jail or being monitored under parole. Yeah police state!

[SteveRiley]

In 2008, 1 person out of every 31 was either in jail or being monitored under parole. Yeah police state!

If America would decriminalize:

* all forms of consumable organic molecular chains
* the sale of activities that are already legal if performed for free

we'd have far fewer people in prisons.

Why do you suppose it'll be decades, if ever, before we see this happen? Discuss.

[NickStone]

* the sale of activities that are already legal if performed for free

What does this mean?

[HalationEffect]

What does this mean?

I believe it is a reference to prostitution.

[HalationEffect]

If America would decriminalize:

* all forms of consumable organic molecular chains
* the sale of activities that are already legal if performed for free

we'd have far fewer people in prisons.

One thing that would help reduce America's prison population would be to get rid of the "3 strikes" rule. It might even save lives too... a criminal with 2 strikes, while committing another crime will do *anything* to avoid getting caught and given that 3rd strike, and won't care how many people get hurt or killed in the process. The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

Personally, I feel that governments have no business telling anyone what substances they can and can't put into their bodies, or whether or not they can charge money for (e.g.) sexual services. All of that should come under the umbrella of public health IMO, not the criminal justice system. I don't know how things are in the USA, but here in the UK it is easier for a minor to buy illegal drugs than it is for them to buy tobacco or alcohol, which to me shows just how stupid and pointless the government's policy of prohibition is. Various drugs have been illegal for many, many years, yet their availability has not been reduced one iota. The current policies are abject failures; we need a new approach.

I also dislike motorcycle crash helmet laws, and seatbelt laws... although, having said that, anyone sitting in the seat behind me will be wearing a seatbelt, or one of us will be leaving the vehicle. No need for the law to get involved there.

[NickStone]

I've read a very interesting and well researched article about life sentences here in the UK

http://www.insidetime.org/articlevie..._life_sentence (part 1)

http://www.insidetime.org/articlevie..._life_sentence (part 2)

[whatthefunk]

Personally, I feel that governments have no business telling anyone what substances they can and can't put into their bodies, or whether or not they can charge money for (e.g.) sexual services. All of that should come under the umbrella of public health IMO, not the criminal justice system. I don't know how things are in the USA, but here in the UK it is easier for a minor to buy illegal drugs than it is for them to buy tobacco or alcohol, which to me shows just how stupid and pointless the government's policy of prohibition is. Various drugs have been illegal for many, many years, yet their availability has not been reduced one iota. The current policies are abject failures; we need a new approach.

I also dislike motorcycle crash helmet laws, and seatbelt laws... although, having said that, anyone sitting in the seat behind me will be wearing a seatbelt, or one of us will be leaving the vehicle. No need for the law to get involved there.

I agree about the drug thing to a certain extent. Legalizing the production, sale and use of drugs would prevent all sorts of crime not just in the States (or UK in your case) but in the countries where they are produced. Cocaine is completely destroying many South and Central American nations and opium products are doing the same to some Central Asian communities. It would also be easier to control, although Im not sure if it would be more tightly controlled...I can very easily buy legal, regulated prescription pills in the states. The government could tax drugs as well. However, having lost a few friends to drugs and having seen them deteriorate beyond recognition makes me think that some drugs, mainly opiates, should remain illegal. A lot of times, the only thing that prevents addicts from dying is that they simply dont have enough drugs to kill themselves with. The mind of a heroin addict thinks of one thing and one thing only: heroin. That stuff is pure evil.

About seatbelt laws and helmet laws. In many cases youre right...if you dont wear a helmet and crash, the only life youre putting at risk is your own. However, and this is especially true in the UK where you have a public health care system, wearing a helmet or seatbelt greatly reduces the chances of having major injuries and therefore results in lower health care costs. Thats good for everyone. Another thing that many people dont think about is that if you get into an accident with another motorist and they arent wearing a helmet or seatbelt, they could die and you could be charged with manslaughter. Again, good not only for the guy wearing the seatbelt/helmet, but good for others too.

[HalationEffect]

However, having lost a few friends to drugs and having seen them deteriorate beyond recognition makes me think that some drugs, mainly opiates, should remain illegal. A lot of times, the only thing that prevents addicts from dying is that they simply dont have enough drugs to kill themselves with. The mind of a heroin addict thinks of one thing and one thing only: heroin. That stuff is pure evil.

Devil's advocate: If they could have sought help without the fear of being thrown into prison or other legal repurcussions, maybe they'd be alive today. Not to mention the fact that illegal, unregulated drugs can be (and usually are) cut with *anything* in order to improve profits. Many of the negative health issues connected to drug use are a result of this. If they were legal and regulated, I believe that they would be far less harmful. Keeping drugs illegal is keeping the production and distribution in the hands of criminals, who don't much care about the well being of their customers.

Put it this way - heroin's illegal status didn't save your friends' lives. Why would you think that keeping it illegal would save anyone else's life?

It's kind of a knee-jerk reaction... "let's make / keep it illegal, problem solved". Trouble is, it doesn't solve the problem, it simply sweeps it under the rug.

(Edit) On the seatbelt & crash helmet issue... if they took those laws off the books, I know that I would still choose to use them (if I still rode motorbikes and drove cars, that is), and I suspect many others also would. There simply doesn't need to be a 'nanny state' law covering it. I'd also prefer that the police spent more of their time focussing on violent crime rather than such nonsense.

[NickStone]

unregulated drugs can be (and usually are) cut with *anything* in order to improve profits. Many of the negative health issues connected to drug use are a result of this. If they were legal and regulated, I believe that they would be far less harmful. Keeping drugs illegal is keeping the production and distribution in the hands of criminals, who don't much care about the well being of their customers.

There is no evidence that making illegal drugs legal would improve the quality of them. There will still be criminals making them as cheap as possible to maximise profit. Also there is no evidence that drug users will stop buying illegal drugs and start buying the legal version. Methodone is a heroin substitute that users get prescribed and take to help them off the evil stuff however they still go out and buy the illegal stuff. Also, cigerattes are legal but, at least in the UK, there is a growing black market on illegal cigerettes where some of the stuff has been made with anyting and everything (smokers don't know what they are smoking).

[whatthefunk]

Devil's advocate: If they could have sought help without the fear of being thrown into prison, maybe they'd be alive today. Not to mention the fact that illegal, unregulated drugs can be (and usually are) cut with *anything* in order to improve profits. Many of the negative health issues connected to drug use are a result of this. If they were legal and regulated, I believe that they would be far less harmful. Keeping drugs illegal is keeping the production and distribution in the hands of criminals, who don't much care about the well being of their customers.

Put it this way - heroin's illegal status didn't save your friends' lives. Why would you think that keeping it illegal would save anyone else's life?

I dont think you understand serious addiction. Most addicts dont want help, they want heroin. All of my friends who died from drugs had been to rehab several times, but only because their families made them go and they were not allowed to leave. Its not like the cops are standing outside the door waiting for addicts to come get help so they can arrest them. But within six months of leaving rehab, you can see them start to slide back into abuse. It usually starts with alcohol and marijuana. Then cocaine and pills start to be used and then they disappear for a few months and you know that the next time you see them they will be pasty and white and junk sick and come wanting to borrow money for some ridiculous reason which is obviously a lie.

About the drugs being cut....honestly, thank god they are. All of my friends who died ODed from shooting especially pure heroin. Shooting baking powder or whatever else into your veins is way better than heroin. Another thing, if heroin were legalized and drug companies started producing it their "customers" would drop like flies. In order to be profitable, they would have to get new customers, who would also die. Companies and the criminals you mentioned are the exact same: they only care about profits.

(Edit) On the seatbelt & crash helmet issue... if they took those laws off the books, I know that I would still choose to use them (if I still rode motorbikes and drove cars, that is), and I suspect many others also would. There simply doesn't need to be a 'nanny state' law covering it. I'd also prefer that the police spent more of their time focussing on violent crime rather than such nonsense.

Yes, of course many still would. But if you hit a motorcyclist who wasnt wearing a helmet and he died, it would be your fault and youd be in prison for 20 years. With helmet laws, because he violated a law, his death would be on his hands.

[HalationEffect]

There is no evidence that making illegal drugs legal would improve the quality of them.

Of course there isn't any evidence, because it's never been tried...

Also, cigerattes are legal but, at least in the UK, there is a growing black market on illegal cigerettes where some of the stuff has been made with anyting and everything (smokers don't know what they are smoking).

So, the legal & regulated tobacco products are of a known quality, and the illegal, black market stuff is adulterated with who knows what. And yet you're suggesting that legalising and regulating drugs wouldn't have the same effect?

Part of the reason (the other part being pure greed) that criminals make drugs as cheap as possible to maximise profits is because without huge profits, who would want to take the risk of legal sanction otherwise? I believe that legalised, regulated, quality controlled drugs could be price competitive with black market drugs, because they wouldn't have such concerns.

I believe the best way to put illegal drug suppliers out of business is for the government to allow legitimate businesses to out-compete them with a superior product. Getting rid of drugs is a pipe dream; we should be aiming for harm reduction, something that current policy simply isn't achieving.

[HalationEffect]

I dont think you understand serious addiction. Most addicts dont want help, they want heroin. All of my friends who died from drugs had been to rehab several times, but only because their families made them go and they were not allowed to leave. Its not like the cops are standing outside the door waiting for addicts to come get help so they can arrest them. But within six months of leaving rehab, you can see them start to slide back into abuse. It usually starts with alcohol and marijuana. Then cocaine and pills start to be used and then they disappear for a few months and you know that the next time you see them they will be pasty and white and junk sick and come wanting to borrow money for some ridiculous reason which is obviously a lie.

I've lost friends to heroin overdoses, and I've seen how they behaved when they were addicted. How does throwing them into prison help? It's not like prisons are drug-free zones...

If you haven't already, I'd suggest watching the show Russell Brand made about his own battle with heroin addiction (it may still be on BBC iPlayer for those in the UK, or those who have a VPN that makes them look like they're in the UK). It's a real eye-opener.

About the drugs being cut....honestly, thank god they are. All of my friends who died ODed from shooting especially pure heroin. Shooting baking powder or whatever else into your veins is way better than heroin. Another thing, if heroin were legalized and drug companies started producing it their "customers" would drop like flies. In order to be profitable, they would have to get new customers, who would also die. Companies and the criminals you mentioned are the exact same: they only care about profits.

I'm not suggesting that legalised drugs should be sold pure. Is alcohol typically sold pure? I don't see why customers of legalised drugs would be dropping like flies, when the product isn't adulterated with (for example) scouring powder or battery acid crystals or whatever.

They should be cut with known safe substances to a purity level that is clearly stated on the packaging. The problem with illegal drugs is that you don't know the strength of what you bought, or what it was mixed with until it's too late.

Yes, of course many still would. But if you hit a motorcyclist who wasnt wearing a helmet and he died, it would be your fault and youd be in prison for 20 years. With helmet laws, because he violated a law, his death would be on his hands.

I honestly don't see why whether or not a motorcyclist was wearing a helmet would have any bearing on who was liable for the accident. And I say this as a former motorcyclist who didn't have many good things to say about most car drivers.

[whatthefunk]

So, the legal & regulated tobacco products are of a known quality, and the illegal, black market stuff is adulterated with who knows what. And yet you're suggesting that legalising and regulating drugs wouldn't have the same effect?

Part of the reason (the other part being pure greed) that criminals make drugs as cheap as possible to maximise profits is because without huge profits, who would want to take the risk of legal sanction otherwise? I believe that legalised, regulated, quality controlled drugs could be price competitive with black market drugs, because they wouldn't have such concerns.

I believe the best way to put illegal drug suppliers out of business is for the government to allow legitimate businesses to out-compete them with a superior product. Getting rid of drugs is a pipe dream; we should be aiming for harm reduction, something that current policy simply isn't achieving.

This is just painful to read. When it comes to heroin, there is no such thing as harm reduction. Do you really want companies to compete and try to offer the best possible heroin to the most amount of people? Do you really want some company actively trying to sell your kids, grandkids, friends, and other family members something that will, with 95% certainty, completely destroy their lives? Do you want to watch the people around you sink into an abyss of needles, dark dirty basement apartments, and blank eyed stares? Do you want them to drop off the face of the earth for half a year and resurface from god knows where with yellow-white skin hanging off them and sores all over their arms, and instead of greeting you when you open the door, they ask you for five thousand dollars because they need to pay an over due video rental fee? Do you want to spend all your money to put them into rehab time and time again only to watch them fall back into addiction? Want to find them passed out on the floor with needles in their arms? Want to find them selling themselves for money? Want to be called by the police at 3 am to find out that your friend or family member has been involved in a terrible accident while driving home from scoring? After all this it is honestly a relief to find them dead. Im not kidding.