Win-DOHs! 7

[tek_heretik]

My gf brought over her clogged AMD box, did a physical clean then figured, wth, trim the fat from Win-DOHs, what a mistake, permissions nightmares, things move around or removed (intuitive my *ss), it's NT, 2000 is the great grand pappy of this monstrosity, looks like I made the right decision dumping Win-DOHs after XPeepee, lol. And what's with all the 'Live' garbage? Just another way for them to get users to go to their lame spambot infested servers, track them and make even more money on ad revenues. I don't miss Win-DOHs at all, not in the least, this was my first major exposure to 7 and hopefully my last, blech.

[SteveRiley]

Don't attempt to move stuff around on Windows or mess with file permissions. The files that constitute the operating system are owned by a special security principal known as "Trusted Installer," which is part of Windows 7's mandatory integrity control. Relocating files with Explorer won't update any references that might exist in the registry. The WinSxS directory might look like it's full of many copies of the same file, but in fact it's mostly hard links.

These are just a few of the changes from XP days. Much of the sloppiness in Windows, which people quickly became comfortable with, was eliminated in Vista and (especially) Windows 7. In a manner, it enforces a rigor that's more simliar to Linux: you have to use the installer (Linux equiv: a package manager), files are protected from malicious modification (Linux equiv: SELinux or AppArmor), and the highest-privilege account (Linux equiv: root) has its login disabled by default.

Unfortunately, there's one default setting that renders some of this less effective than it could be. The first account you create during an install is a member of the Administrators group, which gives it power to override most of the safety settings. So malware can act with all the power of an administrator, which means it can be damaging. I wish the default were a standard user, like Linux.

The "Live" products are mostly a marketing excercise, although if you're a Hotmail user, Windows Live Mail is much superior to using the web interface. And it's a bit disingenuous to say that Microsoft's services are "spambots"; Microsoft actually has stronger corporate and consumer privacy policies than most of the large tech companies.

<flame-suit: ON (hehehe)>

[tek_heretik]

Don't attempt to move stuff around on Windows or mess with file permissions. The files that constitute the operating system are owned by a special security principal known as "Trusted Installer," which is part of Windows 7's mandatory integrity control. Relocating files with Explorer won't update any references that might exist in the registry. The WinSxS directory might look like it's full of many copies of the same file, but in fact it's mostly hard links.

These are just a few of the changes from XP days. Much of the sloppiness in Windows, which people quickly became comfortable with, was eliminated in Vista and (especially) Windows 7. In a manner, it enforces a rigor that's more simliar to Linux: you have to use the installer (Linux equiv: a package manager), files are protected from malicious modification (Linux equiv: SELinux or AppArmor), and the highest-privilege account (Linux equiv: root) has its login disabled by default.

Unfortunately, there's one default setting that renders some of this less effective than it could be. The first account you create during an install is a member of the Administrators group, which gives it power to override most of the safety settings. So malware can act with all the power of an administrator, which means it can be damaging. I wish the default were a standard user, like Linux.

The "Live" products are mostly a marketing excercise, although if you're a Hotmail user, Windows Live Mail is much superior to using the web interface. And it's a bit disingenuous to say that Microsoft's services are "spambots"; Microsoft actually has stronger corporate and consumer privacy policies than most of the large tech companies.

<flame-suit: ON (hehehe)>

I appreciate the advice, understood and digested, but even in Linux with a simple sudo..., I can access a file, etc, if I want to, we are not talking system damaging file(s) here, it was something as simple as trying to import email to Thunderbird, etc.

As for the 'Live' nonsense...hotmail rebranded, lol, and yes, their SERVERS are infested with spambots, virusbots, you name it. I was still getting virus and spam mail from a person's account that I know for a fact was closed months earlier, of course I took that opportunity to PHONE Microsoft and threaten to sue THEM, lol. The emails eventually stopped but I still have people tell me similar stories. <flame-suit: melted (lol)>

That experience with Win-DOHs 7 almost made me cry (tears of joy I have Kubuntu!)

[dibl]

I have a Win 7 Pro VM that I need to run a couple of proprietary Windows apps, plus it makes a dandy printer driver for my obscure little Canon Pixma iP6220. I set it up when Win 7 was first released, installed MS Security Essentials,and disabled all the non-needed services. I set up samba and configured smb.conf to allow very promiscuous file sharing between my Linux user directory and the Win 7 VM, so I can pass my needed files back and forth. I don't normally use the VM for anything except my genealogy apps and my web site development environment, and I must concede that it has been totally stable and trouble-free for several years now. I also recently made a Win 8 VM so I could play with the preview version of that -- but it's pretty underwhelming on the big box desktop. It looks like they've actually made it harder to use for keyboard and mouse operations.

[MoonRise]

Dibl;

Agree. Windows 7 to me has been far better than Vista and close to XP in functionality. I can't bad mouth 7 too much. It's fairly solid. It has its idiosyncrasies but I've never run across and OS or software that didn't. So it is as it is. NOW, Windows 8, that I have issues with. First of anything, and I know it was just the public view version, but that thing crashed constantly in any VM configuration I had. Could not make simple changes to the system, like I would normally with my Desktop, without having to completely reinstall. The GUI I actually wasn't too opposed to it like so many and was actually able to use Keyboard and Mouse rather well. I found it silly in Desktop mode that you couldn't have a start button. Stupid decision there, but I was able to figure out rather quickly how to get to the Tile thing. Really haven't played much more with it as I got very tired of trying to install it without issues. May see if they have an updated version of the preview. Maybe they "fixed" those issues.

[tek_heretik]

I am glad you guys are still partial MS fanboiz, lol, but not me, I can hold a grudge for YEARS. In my eyes, they owe ME money for all the lost hours due to maintenance, viruses (95-XP), etc. Besides the DRM and the 'use our MS apps' agenda now. Windows makes my skin crawl (Steve B. is the anti-Christ, lol, and here I thought Gates was, lol even harder), I don't care how pretty they make it. If I am going to fight with an OS and trouble shoot it, I want some reward in the end, like stability, NO DRM and low cost of ownership. My gf had no clue about the Create Recovery Media option (HP/Compaq Presario), if I didn't see that and made her a set, if her HD died, she would have had to open her purse to MS yet again. She already paid the MS tax, now you have to make your own disks too?!

[SteveRiley]

we are not talking system damaging file(s) here, it was something as simple as trying to import email to Thunderbird, etc.

That's weird. Thunderbird's files should be owned by the logged in user, and therefore shouldn't cause any problem. The Windows file permissions system is actually somewhat less flexible than Linux and usually doesn't need any tinkering at all.

yes, their SERVERS are infested with spambots, virusbots, you name it. I was still getting virus and spam mail from a person's account that I know for a fact was closed months earlier... The emails eventually stopped but I still have people tell me similar stories.

Ah, I'm going to have you call you on this one A closed Hotmail account cannot send or receive any email (I'm quite familiar with the Hotmail architecture). Spammers frequently use forged "from" addresses, and this is what you were seeing. And, unfortunately, we're all rather powerless to stop this from happening. It would require replacing SMTP with something specifically built to eliminate the conditions that right now enable easy forging.

I am glad you guys are still partial MS fanboiz, lol, but not me...
NO DRM...
Create Recovery Media option... She already paid the MS tax, now you have to make your own disks too?!

Nah, not a fanboy. Just a fan of accurate assessments I agree with your stance on DRM, I wish Microsoft wouldn't capitulate to the recording industry. As for your final point, direct your frustration at HP. It's their decision, not Microsoft's, to force their customers to go through that process.

<flame-suit: melted (lol)>

<flame-suit: reconstituted; try-again >

[MoonRise]

Not a Fan. I will bash where I think it is due. I agree I spend more time repairing a Windows issue than I do a Linux based distro or even an Apple machine.

[SteveRiley]

The GUI I actually wasn't too opposed to it like so many and was actually able to use Keyboard and Mouse rather well. I found it silly in Desktop mode that you couldn't have a start button. Stupid decision there, but I was able to figure out rather quickly how to get to the Tile thing.

The other day I read (forgot where, sorry) a GNOME developer's response to someone lamenting GNOME 3's lack of configurability. The response was something like, "We aren't designing this UI for people who wish to tinker with their console settings." Microsoft appears to exhibit this same mentality with Windows 8.

I really do wonder how many new users this Metro thing will attract. Existing users who remember their pains from Vista are not likely to upgrade. Once again, Microsoft will probably make most of its money shipping Windows 8 preinstalled on machines at your local BestWallBuyMart. To the extent their machines don't have touchscreens, after about, oh, a week of swimming in the tile/no-tile swamp, purchasers might be looking for alternatives. We Kubuntu-ers should consider how to make ourselves available at that point.

[tek_heretik]

That's weird. Thunderbird's files should be owned by the logged in user, and therefore shouldn't cause any problem. The Windows file permissions system is actually somewhat less flexible than Linux and usually doesn't need any tinkering at all.


Ah, I'm going to have you call you on this one A closed Hotmail account cannot send or receive any email (I'm quite familiar with the Hotmail architecture). Spammers frequently use forged "from" addresses, and this is what you were seeing. And, unfortunately, we're all rather powerless to stop this from happening. It would require replacing SMTP with something specifically built to eliminate the conditions that right now enable easy forging.


Nah, not a fanboy. Just a fan of accurate assessments I agree with your stance on DRM, I wish Microsoft wouldn't capitulate to the recording industry. As for your final point, direct your frustration at HP. It's their decision, not Microsoft's, to force their customers to go through that process.


<flame-suit: reconstituted; try-again >

1. The Thunderbird thing, that all started by me trying to import/locate the 'Live' mail folder, running in to the permissions thing, the work around (I gave up, couldn't be bothered) was install Outhouse Explode, export from Live to Outhouse, then import to T-bird from Outhouse, gahk.

2. The hotmail thing, Steve, sir, with all do respect, I think can read an email address, this happened to me twice, an ex gf's CLOSED account was sending me hotmails complete with virused porn spam, this was in the middle '00s, the second instance was only a year + 1/2 ago, same thing, CLOSED account. Did you not read the part about other people telling me of similar experiences?

3. The fanboiz thing was a joke and I hope I didn't offend anybody, I too have to stay up to date with Win-DOHs, how will I fix anything otherwise?

<does your flame suit have a penguin or a Sesame Street (colour scheme) style window logo on it?>

[tek_heretik]

The other day I read (forgot where, sorry) a GNOME developer's response to someone lamenting GNOME 3's lack of configurability. The response was something like, "We aren't designing this UI for people who wish to tinker with their console settings." Microsoft appears to exhibit this same mentality with Windows 8.

I really do wonder how many new users this Metro thing will attract. Existing users who remember their pains from Vista are not likely to upgrade. Once again, Microsoft will probably make most of its money shipping Windows 8 preinstalled on machines at your local BestWallBuyMart. To the extent their machines don't have touchscreens, after about, oh, a week of swimming in the tile/no-tile swamp, purchasers might be looking for alternatives. We Kubuntu-ers should consider how to make ourselves available at that point.

KDE: the last sensible GUI known to mankind, lol.

[MoonRise]

Unfortunately the industry sees the trend of many users and really is inevitable. People do want to buy something that they don't have to learn anything past what they know. It is to them basically an appliance. That's not me and I feel I can make my comments about an OS or other as I have to deal with it daily. The appliance users do not and don't want to. Again, it works. What is odd though is sooooo many think that MS products do just that, work. They don't always. That also is why MS made the move they did with Surface. Just like Apple they'll control that to make sure it works. Really though, they've been the old model for so long I don't now how well that will fit as they got their foot hold by "working" with other vendors. I actually could go a whole paragraph or two just on a what-if theory but that is all conjecture, as Yoda had said abut the Future, whichever line you think it was he said.

[SteveRiley]

2. The hotmail thing, Steve, sir, with all do respect, I think can read an email address, this happened to me twice, an ex gf's CLOSED account was sending me hotmails complete with virused porn spam, this was in the middle '00s, the second instance was only a year + 1/2 ago, same thing, CLOSED account. Did you not read the part about other people telling me of similar experiences?

Not intending to start an argument... but forging sender email addresses and even complete SMTP envelopes remains a fairly trivial task. There are still enough open SMTP relays that allow spammers to continue using this very popular obfuscation technique. I am more confident in Hotmail's technical deployment and my knowledge of it than I am a batch of anecdotal reports. Those emails you're receiving are not actually being routed through or from Hotmail. Most likely, a spammer got hold of your ex-girlfriend's address book (many viruses steal local address books), and then crafted email to appear as if it came from her Hotmail and sent it to everyone in the address book.

3. The fanboiz thing was a joke and I hope I didn't offend anybody, I too have to stay up to date with Win-DOHs, how will I fix anything otherwise?

<does your flame suit have a penguin or a Sesame Street (colour scheme) style window logo on it?>

LOL. No offense taken, friend. And my flame suit is now very much Kubuntblue

[tek_heretik]

Not intending to start an argument... but forging sender email addresses and even complete SMTP envelopes remains a fairly trivial task. There are still enough open SMTP relays that allow spammers to continue using this very popular obfuscation technique. I am more confident in Hotmail's technical deployment and my knowledge of it than I am a batch of anecdotal reports. Those emails you're receiving are not actually being routed through or from Hotmail. Most likely, a spammer got hold of your ex-girlfriend's address book (many viruses steal local address books), and then crafted email to appear as if it came from her Hotmail and sent it to everyone in the address book.


LOL. No offense taken, friend. And my flame suit is now very much Kubuntblue

Then riddle me this...why has ALL of theses occurrences contained ONLY hotmail addresses?! I have NEVER received such an email from an ISP's server, Yahoo, etc. I hear what you are saying but I will always be convinced there are virus sending spambots on the hotmail server, after all, they most likely are running Win-DOHs on them, lmao.

[SteveRiley]

Then riddle me this...why has ALL of theses occurrences contained ONLY hotmail addresses?! I have NEVER received such an email from an ISP's server, Yahoo, etc. I hear what you are saying but I will always be convinced there are virus sending spambots on the hotmail server, after all, they most likely are running Win-DOHs on them, lmao.

This can be explained by some research we conducted about three years ago. Because Windows either includes or quickly installs Windows Live Mail, a large proportion of Hotmail users end up with locally-stored copies of their address books. Outlook, too, integrates with Hotmail and provides another means for storing local address books. WLM and Outlook users who subsequently get infected with address book stealing malware will fall victim to this problem. There are far fewer Yahoo and Gmail address books available for theft, because users of these email systems mostly rely on the web client -- nothing's stored locally for malware to abscond with.

Hotmail started on a mix of Solaris and FreeBSD in 1996. In 2001, Microsoft completed moving the mail and web functions to Windows. DNS, being hosted at Akamai, is still on Unix.