Yet Another evolution article on Slashdot

[rms]

There is no solution. They don't want autonomy but independent state, torn of our country. They are minority in Serbia. What do you think would happen if Albanians demanded a separate state in places where they live in USA? I suspect the drones would get very busy.

Edit: I do believe there would be a chance if they(Albanians) were hard-pressed from the outside since they *accomplished* what they have now with plentiful help of that outside.

But, as I said previously, somebody is in bad need of coal resources there(at massive discount if not for free) and as long as that lasts, they will not play ball and continue to raise havoc in the region(Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece, not to mention their sh*tin' our heads).

[bsniadajewski]

From Wikipedia arrticle on Kosovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Relations between Albanian and Serb communities

The relations between Kosovo's ethnic Albanian and Serb populations have been hostile since the rise of nationalism in the Balkans during the 19th century, rivalry which became strong after Serbia gained Kosovo from the Ottoman Empire in 1913 and after Albania became independent in the same year.^[9] During the Tito-era of communist rule in Yugoslavia, the ethnic Albanian and Serb populations of Kosovo were strongly irreconcilable with sociological studies during the Tito-era indicating that ethnic Albanian and Serb peoples in Kosovo rarely accepted each other as neighbours or friends and few held interethnic marriages.^[176] Ethnic prejudices, stereotypes and mutual distrust between ethnic Albanians and Serbs have remained common for decades.^[176] The level of intolerance and separation between the ethnic Albanian and Serb communities during the Tito-period was reported by sociologists to be worse than that of Croat and Serb communities in Yugoslavia which also had tensions but held some closer relations between each other.^[176]

I can see why it is so. My solution would be to have the predominantly Albanian portion of Kosovo become independent (to do what it wants) while Leposavić, Zvečan, and Zubin Potoki (and maybe Štrpce,though as an exclave) revert back to Serbia, while all the 26 Orthodox monasteries dotting the area also fall under the jurisdiction of Serbia. Don't take it personal though. I understand the importance of the region historical and symbolically to the Serbian people, but if the Albanians no longer feel a part of Serbia (I guess they never have), I guess it's time to give them independence. Again, don't take it personal.

[rms]

I can see why it is so. My solution would be to have the predominantly Albanian portion of Kosovo become independent (to do what it wants) while Leposavić, Zvečan, and Zubin Potoki (and maybe Štrpce,though as an exclave) revert back to Serbia, while all the 26 Orthodox monasteries dotting the area also fall under the jurisdiction of Serbia. Don't take it personal though. I understand the importance of the region historical and symbolically to the Serbian people, but if the Albanians no longer feel a part of Serbia (I guess they never have), I guess it's time to give them independence. Again, don't take it personal.

If your Muslim neighbor pushed his fence into your yard, just because he lives there and thinks you're a filthy kafir pig(for you're a Christian) so he is entitled to what is yours by that very *fact*, what would you do?

Wouldn't you say then it's time to give independence to Basques in Spain? Or to Catholics(Irish) in Northern Ireland? Or maybe to Armenians in Eastern Turkey? Why then Republika Srpska cannot be an independent state? Why Albanians are not allowed to take half of Macedonia since they are half of population there? Why were Serbs expelled by force of arms from Croatia when they demanded much less for themselves(cultural autonomy) and nobody did anything against it?

I could go on with these examples because they are frequent throughout the world but I think you get the picture. Only we are expected to handout our territory for the asking. And that's because some very base interests of those supporting them are covered by fancy talk about freedom, human rights and other propaganda nonsense CNN is trying to pass for truth.

But we managed mighty Ottomans, we'll deal with the Shiptars...

[bsniadajewski]

I do somewhat favor having poitical boundaries actually reflect actual ethnic boundaries (Albania encompassing the Albanian-speaking region in Europe, Serbia include all Serb areas, including the Republika Srpska in Bosnia, etc.). But, I'd rather it be done peacefully without instances of forceful "cleansing" on anybody's part.

I'd like to hear other's opinion on this very intersting situation.

BTW, You missed a q, it's Shqiptar (plural Shqiptarët).

[rms]

BTW, You missed a q, it's Shqiptar (plural Shqiptarët).

I made no mistake there.

Edit: I did made a mistake about Armenians. It's the Kurds asking for their share of Turkish country. Although Armenians also have a very bad grudge against the Turks...

So many nations, one can get confused as to who's zooming whom and why.

[bsniadajewski]

I'll forgive ya there on the Armenians. I see the lack of q there, though if I was Albanian, I would be offended. It's just as offensive as a certain derogatory word for members of the African-American community; never will you see me use it. I am not one to use such terms for any group (ethnic, religious, or otherwiswe). I was going to mention that some of your examples have been resolved somewhat. The Basques have considerable autonomy within Spain, along with cAtalonia and Galicia, for example.

[rms]

The Basques have considerable autonomy within Spain, along with cAtalonia and Galicia, for example.

These folks didn't sattle even for the broadest autonomy. Now, they want what is now southern Serbia.

As for language, I don't mince words when someone, something deserves it, and they do.

[bsniadajewski]

I don't mince words either, but no group deserves such derogatory names. Remember the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) applies to all people(s). I'm of Polish descent (5th generation, fron what was West Prussia in the German-held portion), I wouldn't like it if people called us "Pollocks" out of such spite.
Ain't it funny that such terms are derived from the language of the people being dissed. [Albanians are Shqiptarët (sing Shqiptar), Poles are Polacy (sing. Polak)]?

[rms]

I don't mince words either, but no group deserves such derogatory names. Remember the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) applies to all people(s). I'm of Polish descent (5th generation, fron what was West Prussia in the German-held portion), I wouldn't like it if people called us "Pollocks" out of such spite.
Ain't it funny that such terms are derived from the language of the people being dissed. [Albanians are Shqiptarët (sing Shqiptar), Poles are Polacy (sing. Polak)]?

You are an unspoilt soul who hasn't been treated real bad yet (and I hope that you'll never be) so cannot understand spite or that it's not without it's cause. Do you think they are using better words when talking about us(not that it matters anything to us what they say)?

I also remember "eye for an eye(or both if one is really pissed )".

[bsniadajewski]

Oooh, I've been teased before during my elementary school days (back in the 80's), but it never about my ethnic background. That was mainly about my looks and a huge overbite I had until it got fixed when I was in (Catholic) high school. As to the name-calling (as I call it), I'm the feelings are mutual, but that doesn'e excuse it for either of you. Jesus [assuming you are (Orthodox) Christian] asks us t olove love our neighbors, and the Albanians, Croats, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are your

BTW, I remember Jesus also said "love your enemy", (if you get where I'm going here).

(know that Jesus is also important to Muslims as they consider him a great prophet, just not devine as we Christians mostly believe.)

[rms]

Oooh, I've been teased before during my elementary school days (back in the 80's), but it never about my ethnic background. That was mainly about my looks and a huge overbite I had until it got fixed when I was in (Catholic) high school. As to the name-calling (as I call it), I'm the feelings are mutual, but that doesn'e excuse it for either of you. Jesus [assuming you are (Orthodox) Christian] asks us t olove love our neighbors, and the Albanians, Croats, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are your

BTW, I remember Jesus also said "love your enemy", (if you get where I'm going here).

(know that Jesus is also important to Muslims as they consider him a great prophet, just not devine as we Christians mostly believe.)

Eh, imagine that, you've been teased in the elementary school, some trouble! I'm speaking about much graver things like what happened in Macedonia quite recently. This was their long standing tactics in Serbia, many Serbs got killed that way. And when they got a response they deserve, could not take their porridge like men but started whining and lobbying with their drug money about how they're molested and persecuted other sh*t you've been exposed on CNN because America has an interest here(but not a noble one I assure you).

So, in theory, it's nice and moral to love everyone but if they start shooting at you because you're certain religion or nationality than it's plain stupid. Just remember 9/11 and what it was like for you. Your country crushed 2 countries causing death and terror to many thousands of people there over two buildings. What if random killings where going on for years in America inspired by desire to take part of your country? Would you be talking about love of God?

[SteveRiley]

Religion and violence always appear to need each other, no? Consider, for example, the entire Old Testament. The various sacred texts make for great reading as literature, but as a basis for constructing a system of morals that lack inclusions/exclusions, they all fail spectacularly.

[bsniadajewski]

@rms He never said loving your enemy is going to be easy. If it were; we would be in this predicament in the first place.

(DOn't you just hate it when all day you think of something to say, (er write) but when you gat the chance to say it, it escapes ya?)>

@SR One could also say that religion (or lack thereof) has been (ab)used by many a man for their own twisted ends. It's all in how you interpret the scriptures (I generally would put more weight on the NT since it represents a new "covenant" with His people(s?). Interpretting it one way (taking the first few charters of Genesis as literal, e. g.) will cause you trouble in one way; another inerpretation will cause problems in another.

[rms]

@rms He never said loving your enemy is going to be easy. If it were; we would be in this predicament in the first place.

Quite so, only don't forget, he was telling that to the apostles i.e. special people(12 of them only) who could actually put His teaching to practice in the real world but with great difficulty. And even they sometimes failed(who renounced Him?). And to the mob he always talked in parables "that seeing they may not see and hearing not understand". I always found this intriguing... so many times repeated and nobody pays any attention to it.

I only mean to say that following anything(even Christian faith) to the teeth in extreme situations is not wise and even impossible. Particularly if the other side has no scruples of any kind towards you.

However, I'm not identified with the predicament and not bitter at heart. It's the politics, always drawing out what is worst in a person.

[woodsmoke]

SR wrote:

Religion and violence always appear to need each other, no?

One might also remember that extreme liberalism(communism) and violence go hand in hand also:

(enumeration of deaths)
65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."

The following wikipedia source also, to be fair and balanced, provides argument against SOME of the numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bla...k_of_Communism

And the article on the steps to Marxism/Communism at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

woodsmoke