we do not live in a Windows centric world anymore, and kubuntu should adapt

[ondo]

Ubuntu and kubuntu have traditionally been very oriented towards working in a Windows environment. It will, for example, discover a TimeCapsule on the local network, but expect to find an SMB-share on it (which there normally won't be) while even Windows computers on the local network would access it using the AFP-protocol. Getting an ubuntu to use Bonjour and AFP both ways, i.e. both as server and client, is very difficult, and if successful, will not work via the GUI, only through the command line. A successful installation is often clubbed following a major update.
Another example: Ubuntu has been unable to handle the Apple aluminum keyboard, by far the best writing tool available, ever since version 8 of Ubuntu. It appears that no attempts have been made to remedy this, probably thinking that Linux computers would rarely end up in Mac-environments.
A recent survey disclosed that the share of American homes with at least one Apple product has just crossed 50%. So, it will be the rule rather than the exception that kubuntu computers end up in environments with Mac's and iPads etc. Happy coexistence should be kubuntu's ambition.

Cheers
Ondo

P.S. I have yet to install this new version 12, so I might be in for the pleasant surprise that the specific points raised above are solved and thus obsolete. But the general take home message remains - these examples are merely examples of the broader issue of (un)happy coexistence with Apple products.

[james147]

But the general take home message remains - these examples are merely examples of the broader issue of (un)happy coexistence with Apple products.

The problem is harder then you think because apple products tend to rely on proprietary everything which makes it very hard to get them to work well with Linux without the support of apple, and they aren't in any hurry to help a minority get ahead. All the support for their products are currently the result of enthusiastic users back engineering the drivers needed to connect to the apple products.

Its not that Linux doesn't want to work with apple, its apple not wanting to work with Linux (or as far as I can tell, anyone that they cannot steal users from).

[Jonas]

Another example: Ubuntu has been unable to handle the Apple aluminum keyboard, by far the best writing tool available, ever since version 8 of Ubuntu. It appears that no attempts have been made to remedy this, probably thinking that Linux computers would rarely end up in Mac-environments.

Hello and welcome to kubuntu forums.

In a way I can agree, but I'm not sure if it's up to the developers to demand (as james147 reply) Apple, M$ or any manufacturer to give away anything, it'll be fruitless especially with apple (lol pun )

Rather a question that one could ask, if style and design is the primary question (? not sure about apple keyboards are better then other keyboards, if so - why?), what one could ask oneself is why don't manufactures make better design? and why do we buy those products?

Here's a product out on the market, one could argue that it sticks out among the rest .... but c'mon does it come with eye-liner and lipstick?* .. and I've seen worse examples.



*sorry for the sexist remark, couldn't help myself

[SteveRiley]

Rather a question that one could ask, if style and design is the primary question (? not sure about apple keyboards are better then other keyboards, if so - why?), what one could ask oneself is why don't manufactures make better design? and why do we buy those products?

ThinkPads are ugly beasts. But they work fantastically well, and arguably are some of the best laptops for Linux. Why do so many corporations -- and, increasingly, individuals -- buy ThinkPads? Because they want to get shtuff done and don't care about what others think. Of course, not everyone is of this mindset; some people are hobbled by a perception handicap, and these are the folk who seek out and purchase Apple products

</flame-suit: on>

[oshunluvr]

In my world - as long as Apple refuses to "play well with others" I won't buy a single Apple product. Same reason I don't buy Sony products.

EDIT: Funny how the thread title states Kubuntu should adapt, when it's Apple who refuses to adapt...

..from the AFP wiki (emphasis added):

The Apple Filing Protocol (AFP), formerly AppleTalk Filing Protocol, is a proprietary network protocol that offers file services for Mac OS X and original Mac OS.

Clearly, Apple intended to prevent their users from communicating with non-Apple products. Truly an evil corporation. Apple koolaid drinkers get what they pay (and dearly so) for.

Of course, that's just my opinion...

p.s. AFAIK the Apple keyboard does work with linux and has been since 2008. Of course, one has to take the time to set it up manually because Apple doesn't supply drivers for linux.

[Snowhog]

I'm going to jump in on this and say that what Apple has chosen to do with it's Corporate practice -- to restrict R&D and user support to its own proprietary model -- isn't evil. In fact, Apple is probably more honest about it's business model than Microsoft is. There is a distinct advantage for Apple doing what they do with their hardware/software, in that they don't have to worry one iota about 'incompatibility' issues. They must be doing something right, as they are making butt loads of money: Apple is the world's biggest company -- again.

[GreyGeek]

I don't have any qualms about Apple because they don't control what a PC OEM puts on their hardware, and if it weren't for a gift an an iPod 4G Touch two years ago I wouldn't be owning any Apple products.

That said, I had a bunch of pics and movies I had taken with my iPod over the last two years and a couple days ago decided to see if I could transfer them to this PC. I plugged in the iPod to a USB port and within a few seconds Precise told me I had mounted a USB Device. I took the Dolphin option and navigated to the directory on the iPod where the pics and movies are stored. I selected all of them and then the "Copy to" option to move them to my ~/Pictures directory. A few minutes later the task was done. I selected the "Safely remove..." option from the right mouse on Dolphin and unmounted the iPod. (What I DIDN'T do was use the "Move to..." or "Delete" options in Dolphin).

[SteveRiley]

I don't have any qualms about Apple because they don't control what a PC OEM puts on their hardware

Of course not, because Apple is even stinger than Microsoft:

Since Apple transitioned the Macintosh to an Intel platform in 2006, and subsequent to a major increase in visibility and a gain in computer market share for Apple with the success of the iPod, large computer system manufacturers such as Dell have expressed renewed interest in creating Macintosh clones. While various industry executives, notably Michael Dell, have stated publicly that they would like to sell Macintosh-compatible computers, Apple VP Phil Schiller said the company does not plan to let people run Mac OS X on other computer makers' hardware. "We will not allow running Mac OS X on anything other than an Apple Mac," he said.

[Snowhog]

Yes, but that just supports my stated position -- Apple wants/does control the whole thing. You want a Mac? You buy their PC. I still don't see anything inherently wrong with this approach. The consumer is fully aware that if they want Apple, they have to buy Apple.

[SteveRiley]

I don't think anyone's arguing with your evaluation of what happens when someone chooses to go with Apple.

What continues to make me go "duuhh...?" is this. When Microsoft engages in predatory proprietary lock-in behavior, loud griping arises from the masses, and some threaten to abandon. When Apple does the very same thing, legions of fanboys defend it.

A natural question, of course, arises from this: Why doesn't Apple accrue the same criticism, and where are the Microsoft fanboys? I'll leave speculatory answers up to the rest of you

[Snowhog]

My answer, and your question, has it beginnings 'way back'. In the beginning, before Apple came on the scene, Microsoft took the unprecedented position of 'forcing' OEM PC makers to include it's (Windows) OS. There was a time, and I think you can remember it, when you could buy a PC without an operating system on it -- if you desired. Microsoft's move to prevent that took choice away from the consumer. Apple, on the other hand, never took that approach. Instead, they "built there own PC's" and put their own OS on them, and that is the big difference between MS and Apple. And I believe, why Apple doesn't deserve the same derision that MS does.

[SteveRiley]

Oh, I'm fully aware of what went down during US v. Microsoft and the subsequent appeals, modifications, and reviews. In fact, it's possible today to order PCs without Windows, but, distressingly, choices are limited. Some, but not all, computers on Lenovo's web site can be ordered this way, and when so chosen the price drops by $150 or so (I forget exactly how much). The reason you see most OEMs include Windows isn't so much pressure from Microsoft anymore as it is the kick-backs they receive from all the third-party crapware lurking on that rig from your neighborhood Best Buy. This is the source of what little profit OEMs derive, and to install that stuff requires an operating system.

[oshunluvr]

Agreeing with almost all that has been said: I still call Apple "Evil." They purposely attempt to prevent the purchaser of their hardware from utilizing other products made by any other maker. I disagree that most Apple consumers know this at the beginning. Sorry to say the average American consumer is woefully uneducated and drools at the cute "App for that..." ads. I know numerous would-be Apple fanbois that are no longer once they figured out how much is was going to cost them in the long run.

Wanna have some fun? Send a link to a flash video and extol endlessly it's virtues to every Apple-head you know. Do this once a day until they are so irritated at their inability to view these videos that they demand you stop. "Kubuntu should adapt" my rear-end - Apple users should just stay with their own kind.

Boy that last sentence kinda sounds racist or something. Not really racist, but you know what I mean!

[GreyGeek]

I was in a partnership selling Apples and Franklins. Franklins filled the low end niche. Apple releasing an OS X compatible with the x86 platform, like the Apple ][+ or the Franklin, was NOT used by Apple to control what OTHER OS's the OEMs could put on their hardware.

Since about 1995-2000, after MS released the Win95 and also made "agreements" with peripheral device makers to release their products WITHOUT on board intelligence and rely instead on Microsoft's code servicing their peripheral, which created the WinModem, WinPrinter, WinScanner, etc..., NO OEM has successfully installed another OS on their equipment without incurring the rath of MS, and penalties that forced them to drop the other OSs. DELL "tried", or appeared to. Walmart sold netbooks like hot cakes until they got a letter from MS "explaining" how their per-license costs would increase drastically if they continued to sell netbooks with Linux installed. Remember BEOS?

[SecretCode]

What continues to make me go "duuhh...?" is this. When Microsoft engages in predatory proprietary lock-in behavior, loud griping arises from the masses, and some threaten to abandon. When Apple does the very same thing, legions of fanboys defend it.

A natural question, of course, arises from this: Why doesn't Apple accrue the same criticism, and where are the Microsoft fanboys? I'll leave speculatory answers up to the rest of you

Where are the Microsoft fanboys? Here's one highly speculative theory: the majority of Microsoft fans are gainfully employed in big companies where they're either too busy to spend much time on forums, or have those forums actively blocked by corporate policy. They spend their evenings either providing support on the windows forums ... or getting away from all this computer nonsense.

A significant proportion of Apple fans are still hoping for that great job offer, or for the big break for their astonishing art, powerful novel or amazing garage band. And have lots of time to engage in Apple fanship on forums!