Who are we ...?

[Jonas]

I didn't think about religion, as I don't have any faith in any god. I do enjoy reading parts of the bible (and other religious texts - hope to read the Talmud sooner then later), but look at it more as a historical text about mankind and our thoughts, in many ways the bible is a very interesting read. I'm not even baptised, nor married - not with any church of any sort, and I don't celebrate Christmas. I have many friends that are Christians, Muslims and other religions, they know I don't share any of their beliefs, nor do they mine, and we get along fine, and do laugh about our different perspectives at times. I'd reject any authoritarian system, as I believe religion is. If I end up in hell - so be it

Political? I guess, as I consider everything is political. I'm a member of SAC Syndikalisterna. The anarcho-syndicalist union in Sweden, so tomorrow on may-day I'll honour the executed anarchists from the Haymarket massacre in Chicago. So I'm what you would call a libertarian-socialist. If you thought of asking - No(!), I don't consider USSR was on the correct path for all people to be free from the weight of capitalism, it was a totalitarian dictatorship. Even though I'm in the mid thirties (guess I'm one of the younger here ) I've actually been to Soviet Union, when I was twelve just before the collapse of the eastern block. I don't mind a sober and intellectual discussion on politics. A question I've been thinking recently is "what comes beyond 'democracy' ?".

I've actually haven't read much of Bukowski, some I read when I was younger along with some of the other beatnik poets, maybe I should pick those up again. Most I remember was Bukowski's writing 'style' and language. I agree Qqmike, that poem is quite spot on what I would consider the FOSS geek way, being a 'hacker' (in it's broadest meaning) comes with 'style'.

@Icorken - interesting diet. I have some friends who do something the like - meat and beans but no grains, and they say that they've lost some weight, as was intended. I myself is a vegetarian, a lot of bean stews with mostly indian or asian flavouring. I do enjoy cooking and have worked as a chef while I was younger, also have studied cooking, but dropped out, found out it wasn't something I wanted to do for a living.

Again, very nice to hear from so many!

best regards

/Jonas

[dibl]

I don't consider USSR was on the correct path for all people to be free from the weight of capitalism, it was a totalitarian dictatorship.

Heh. That reminds me of something from my youth. I went to university (the first time) at Columbus, Ohio. To understand the humor of this, you must understand that Columbus in 1970 was basically a very large farm town. It was the farthest place on Earth from progressive political movements, except for a tiny fraction of university students and faculty.

So, I'm walking up High Street one day, and down a side street, I see some graffiti spray-painted on the side of a building. It was unusual to see such graffiti in those days, so I walked down to see what it said.

"SMASH SOVIET REVISIONISM!"



I guess you had to be there, to realize how little sense that made to 99.999% of the people who would see it.

[Jonas]

Heh. That reminds me of something from my youth. I went to university (the first time) at Columbus, Ohio. To understand the humor of this, you must understand that Columbus in 1970 was basically a very large farm town. It was the farthest place on Earth from progressive political movements, except for a tiny fraction of university students and faculty.

So, I'm walking up High Street one day, and down a side street, I see some graffiti spray-painted on the side of a building. It was unusual to see such graffiti in those days, so I walked down to see what it said.

"SMASH SOVIET REVISIONISM!"



I guess you had to be there, to realize how little sense that made to 99.999% of the people who would see it.

Hehe, funny story! It must have made quite an impression on you since you remember what it said even ~40 years ago. Today one see political graffiti almost everywhere, and it's hard to remember any 'slogan'. I probably would have been jailed in USSR and USA in the (50s-)70s, in USSR for revisionist and in USA for communism, by McCarthy

b.r

Jonas

[dibl]

It was tough to be a communist in the USA in the 1945 - 1955 period, but few people really went to prison for the belief only -- most went for advocating "overthrow of the government by force or violence". In the first 4 presidential elections that I was old enough to vote for, Gus Hall was on the ballot, running for president. Notice that he spent time in my state of Ohio, in the steel mills.

[Jonas]

It was tough to be a communist in the USA in the 1945 - 1955 period, but few people really went to prison for the belief only -- most went for advocating "overthrow of the government by force or violence".

Link say it all "SAC has thus decided to declare itself to be anti-sexist, anti-militarist, and, as the first trade union in Sweden, feminist (1998 .)" I know about US elections, read some and seen some documentaries about this time in the 50s on US. Some were jailed, and that's a disaster for them, even going through the trials must have been at best a 'chocking' experience. But I do believe that there would have been a better 'fair' chance as a communist in the US then a revisionist in USSR (thus the smiley ). Transparency revieil the actual happenings.

In the first 4 presidential elections that I was old enough to vote for, Gus Hall was on the ballot, running for president. Notice that he spent time in my state of Ohio, in the steel mills.

I also know that there's a Communist party (among others- apart from USSR where there was one major party -then again, not sure I would call myself a marxist as CPUSA- more a Bakuninist - 1st international) in the US, I didn't know about Gus Hall or CPUSA though, could be I'm not a puritan communist. Most political in my mailing lists are labour oriented rather then 'state overthrowing' oriented, even though I don't believe in state authority I'm not sure that act against "advocating "overthrow of the government by force or violence"." would be suitable for any democracy, as there's no action within the statement only (terrorist act 9/11 -2001+ & what is 'free' speech? Is RMS advocating overthrowing M$ ? or 'American interests ?'one could actually argue that, *pulling some strings here, many in the business would argue that RMS is a 'terrorist' * ).

I really enjoy this discussion!

b.r

Jonas

[dibl]

But I do believe that there would have been a better 'fair' chance as a communist in the US then a revisionist in USSR (thus the smiley ).

That is surely true -- especially in the Stalin regime.

My point about the CPUSA was -- in our system, if a person can attract enough support and get elected, then a communist can be a legislator, governor, or even president. It's not illegal, it's just very, very unpopular.

[rms]

Know thyself(s)

At age 65 I still don't know who I am.

Hail Brother! At least one person here who understands that what he has been through, what he has done(or didn't) are not parameters showing who he is to others/himself. A kaleidoscope of shadows one is watching on the wall of a cave it is, just as it was depicted in Plato's Republic.

[Jonas]

That is surely true -- especially in the Stalin regime. :sad:

My point about the CPUSA was -- in our system, if a person can attract enough support and get elected, then a communist can be a legislator, governor, or even president. It's not illegal, it's just very, very unpopular.

Indeed I understand your point, US and all western counties has made that point in the rest of the world - 'by any means necessary' (as stated I wont accept USSR nor Stalin - or the debate about them).... but I stand my ground - what's beyond that democracy ?

Hail Brother! At least one person here who understands that what he has been through, what he has done(or didn't) are not parameters showing who he is to others/himself. A kaleidoscope of shadows one is watching on the wall of a cave it is, just as it was depicted in Plato's Republic.

Yup, and the idea of dialectics, so keep discussing, or the exit of the cave wont emerge

best regards

Jonas

EDIT; I have to go to bed, it's 3 in the morning here .. I'll catch up on this thread soon

[Qqmike]

rms ... Uhmmm, back in Post #14, did I not say, "We are more than what we do"?
:-)
Of course, that flies diametric to existentialism (where what we do is what we are).
You know the mystical gig ... we are spiritual beings having a human experience ...

And as for you communists, how many of you have actually worked through Das Kapital in detail?

[woodsmoke]

I actually read Mein Kampf whilst a junior in High School and I also read the Nazi "Biology" book which, for some strange reason was in the local library! lol And I read Das Kapital as a sophmore in college. A lot of people said I was 60 when I was sixteen but I still feel sixteen and I'm 60.

woodsmoke

[rms]

rms ... Uhmmm, back in Post #14, did I not say, "We are more than what we do"?
:-)
Of course, that flies diametric to existentialism (where what we do is what we are).
You know the mystical gig ... we are spiritual beings having a human experience ...

Ah, I see it now... cheers! Well, It doesn't matter if it contradicts existentialism as it is surely a lopsided form of reasoning. Lungs are created for breathing and that is their purpose and meaning weather we understand it or not. And the same goes for the rest of this beautiful world.

[dibl]

how many of you have actually worked through Das Kapital in detail?

I must admit, I never could stick with it for very long -- kinda skimmed it in college one time. Empirical observations during my lifetime indicate, to me at least, that while communism can work at the level of a commune, where the participants are there voluntarily, it always seems to require brutal coercion to impose it on a larger population, up to a national level. And the "dictatorship of the proletariat" always becomes a dictatorship over the proletariat. Usually marxist true believers argue that "real" communism would work wonderfully, but it's never been put in practice. But of course there's no evidence to support that -- it's a circular argument.

[woodsmoke]

What I hear continually in the hallowed halls of higher education is that "they" could get "real/pure/pristine" communism to work. Of course they are smarter than everybody else, they have a diploma to show it.

woodsmoke

[rms]

What I hear continually in the hallowed halls of higher education is that "they" could get "real/pure/pristine" communism to work. Of course they are smarter than everybody else, they have a diploma to show it.

woodsmoke

Hi woodsmoke,

Why don't they "do" it then? All those fine man don't take into account how inertia/opposition may change the very nature of all such endeavours. What's needed is a helluva knowledgable skipper who already sailed these waters, and I see none. Better be safe than sorry.

[woodsmoke]

Well, in terms of actually "doing" it, that would mean.....dropping their income since all true communists work for free for the good of the state.

WAIT A MINUTE....if all purfessers started working for free and donated their income to pay of the national debt....hmmmmm

wooddeserveseverydollarofmypayandain'tgivingitupsm oke