And you wonder why the Constitution is fading away?

[GreyGeek]

Even worse are some of the comments to article, which claim that "free speech is over rated". It is ONLY free speech that allowed such a statement to be made.

Then there is this little gem: You know of Vanderbuilt University in Nashville, TN. For the first 40 years of its existence, Vanderbilt was under the auspices of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South.


Now, they've gone even farther. They are no longer welcoming Christian student organizations on campus. What would they do, as one wag suggested, if a group of 30 Christian students joined a Young Jihadist group of 20 and changed the charter to allow eating of Bacon and singing Christian songs. Would the University's "Diversity" policy permit it?

[MAHillsgrove]

I want to be careful here, because politics in it's most basic form is emotional in nature. Free speech in America is dying. We are no longer the capitalist paragon of self reliance, independence, and personal responsibility that we once were. Socialists have been elected to the highest offices in the land and the people appointed to high positions no longer believe in the principles of free enterprise, in favor of planned economies and huge government controlling every facet of life.

"Free speech" is by it's nature dangerous to government. Large socialist governments feel particularly threatened by free speech and those governments and socialist/communist/liberal/democrat adherents work heard to shut down all voices but their own. The US Government is now one of the largest, most controlling, most dangerous liberal/socialist governments on earth - although they haven't yet flexed the full power of government yet because they haven't yet fully had 100% control yet. It's coming.

"Political Correctness" enforced by law has been the primary (but not only) tool used so far. Religion is a threat to government because it competes with government for the hearts and minds (and mindless obedience) of the people. Expect more and more incursions on religion (such as the free birth control controversy going on today) as our socialist federal government moves to squash any influence that religion and faith have. It will get worse.

The difference between socialism and communism is when the government moves to "control the means of production", like the US government did when it simply took over GM (it still controls 25%). Also note that they stripped the bondholders of their property and illegally gave that property to the "workers" (proletariat). Classic communism.

I'm Buddhist, not Christian. Yet the thought of restricting the practice of any religion on campus is frightening, and sickens me to the core.It will get worse as newly appointed judges, bureaucrats and politicians continue to grow the power of government and are successful in further incursions into the lives of people and expansion of government.

You voted the people who did this into office. Like boiling a frog slowly over low heat, most people never saw it coming until they were cooked. You were warned, but did not heed the warning, instead choosing to believe the impossible promises that no one who did the math could believe.

So, what are you going to do about it?

[MAHillsgrove]

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
George Washington

[rms]

You voted the people who did this into office. Like boiling a frog slowly over low heat, most people never saw it coming until they were cooked. You were warned, but did not heed the warning, instead choosing to believe the impossible promises that no one who did the math could believe.

So, what are you going to do about it?

Heh, like there was/is much of a choice to do things differently? At least that is how things look to a bloody foreigner like me. Two party system seems to be a very good camouflage concealing hegemony of some kind and much cheaper to maintain than more "players", correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, the same thing seems to be going on around the globe, this increasing regulation which reduces personal rights to ashes, bureaucracy, corruption and all the other beauties of the same lineage, are not strictly the US thing.

So, what you are going to do about it(in US)?

[Snowhog]

MAHillsgrove@

Very, very well expressed (on the earlier post). The United States as our grandparents knew it, is in danger of becoming what our founding fathers gave their property, blood, and their lives to prevent, a government that serves not it's people, but its own self interests. To many Americans don't understand, or worse, don't care, that our Constitution is being shredded right before our eyes! America had one Revolution. It had one Civil War. It may be coming to a time (and may, some might say, already be past it) when a second revolution will be necessary. We, as Americans, still have the means, if not the will, to do so at the ballot box. There are still enough Americans who don't like what our Government has become, and the direction it has and is taking us in, to turn the tide - to take back our beloved Country.

[Qqmike]

IMO, this is simple. (btw, disagree with MAHillsgrove et.al.)
Overpopulation => strain on resources => poverty & all that comes with it.
Toss in failed family structures => more crime; more uneducated people.
Too many uneducated, poor people reproducing => strain on resources; crime; cracks in social structure.
Toss in religion now (esp Islam extremists) => one helluva crazy mess.
(Will some Christian extremists in USA cause WW III?)
"Globalization" (industrial & info/tech/communications) => we all affect each other => we must all get along => we MUST share resources.
Crazed competition (for everything).
All the above => governments MUST get involved to ensure some degree of peace, social civility, social/welfare safety nets (or there will be a revolution of poor vs wealthy), national security (requires serious information probing and gathering => infringements upon some individual freedoms--sorry, no choice here).

Gee, I got some ideas.
How about if we use all this invasive government involvement (globally) to control population (in line with resource development and availability)?
How about using gov't to outlaw religions so we can all think clearly?
How about if we use gov't to ensure that at the very least, people do have * enough * to survive on?
How about if we use gov't to ensure that all kids get an education, and a good one, to meet gov't standards for literacy, math, and science--all around the globe, starting is USA?

Yes, it does begin to sound absurd, in all directions. But the serious clincher is overpopulation versus resources and wealth distribution. We better fix that and fix it fast. It impacts everything, including religious extremists, abuse of greed, social unrest versus social "security."

[bsniadajewski]

Maybe we can reach a compromise here. Away where we cna preserve some of our basic human rights and freedoms (of all people(s), not just Americans et al.) while still silving some of our most pressing problems like overpopulation in some areas and the sharing of resources.

[whatthefunk]

No offense to anybody, but Americans are weird sometimes. Im American myself actually, but Ive been out of the states long enough to look at it from a somewhat outside perspective.
The people on the right accuse the people on the left of being freedom hating communists. However, they vote for guys who continually advocate the limitation of freedom based on supposed religious beliefs of the country's founders when in fact the country's founders clearly advocated for a complete separation between church and state.
The people on the left accuse the people on the right of being greedy, warmongering Christian fundamentalists yet are perhaps more religious about not being religious than the religious people are, seem alright with illegal military operations in sovereign countries, and like to reward corrupt captains of industry with trillion dollar bailouts from the country's treasury.
Weird.

I know that Ill take flack for this, but the real problem is capitalism. The goal of capitalism is profit, not harmony or freedom or your rights or anything like that.
Why is America getting poorer? Because for decades now, American companies have been shifting production facilities to overseas locations to cut costs. This means that American wealth has been flowing out of the country and fueling competitors. Its taken a while but this wealth has led to a dramatic increase in middle class peoples around the world. More people with money means more people who can afford to go to college. More college graduates means even more of the production facilities can be moved overseas. A corporation couldnt care less about its employees, its products, its customers etc. As long as they make money, its okay.
Why is the environment going down the tubes? Because a company whose soul purpose is to make money doesnt really care about the environment.
Why are we heading for a resources crunch? Because in a capitalist society, the goal is profit and wealth. In order to profit, you have to sell. In order to sell, you have to find creative ways to get people to buy more and more and more. In order to fuel the demand for these products, you have to have more resources.
Why is our government so messed up? Because there is way, way too much money in politics. People with money can fund special interest group lobbyists to convince the people that you elected to do something that may not be good for you at all. That just blows my mind. And if you have enough money, you can run a slanderous campaign against your rival so that you win not based on your talents or ideas, but based on your opponents flaws. Im convinced that American politics is more and more becoming not about what is best for the country, but what is the best way to make the opposing party look like a bunch of idiots so that your party can get elected in the next election. So the right messes up everything the left tries to do and the left messes up all the right tries to do and in the end, absolutely nothing gets accomplished and everyone suffers.

But the real killer to me is that despite the blatantly obvious corruption problems the American government is facing, despite the crap economy, people vote based on more or less trivial issues like gay marriage. The country is falling to pieces, unemployment is still high, people cant afford health care, but Im going to vote for this guy only because of his views on gay marriage. Scary.

In a lot of ways, Americans are all fundamentalists about one or two issues.

[Qqmike]

Whatthefunk, basically, I agree with your post and comments re capitalism. I'm also American, and have been self employed most of my adult life (and so I am a practicing and benefiting capitalist). Have known many far Right folks; have known many Western European socialists. I am far more left than right, and not "dogmatic religious" but spiritual. Even in a true capitalist state, we must take care of our society when truly needed--starting with its people, its infrastructure, its educational system. Ironically, to play into the fundamentalists for a moment, what the dickens did Christ preach re your fellow man? To feed and cloth the hungry, the needy, and care for the sick! I'll tell ya what, Whatthefunk, I don't care how you tally it up, assuming one is not brain-dead, the Left as a whole is far more correct than is the Right. Assuming, that is, that you place any emphasis at all on people and our shared humanity on this increasingly crowded planet. This is no longer the sparsely populated wild west and exclusive home for rugged independent, loner individualists. Last time I checked it is 2012, 300 million people here in USA, and many more popping up all around the planet--and they all want cars, gas for the car, and functioning refrigerators. And we all feel we are each in competition for survival. The 99% can be pushed around to a certain extent, until people feel they do not have "just enough" for basic necessities (food, shelter, clothing, basic health care, perhaps basic education), at which point, if sustained long enough, there WILL most certainly be violent revolution.

[MAHillsgrove]

Somehow I new that the liberal/socialist/democrat/progressive/communists would chime in and as expected, the arguments were all over the field, generally in irrelevant directions and usually with "social justice" as it's argument. The last set of arguments did not disappoint me.

Government can not solve problems. Long experience has demonstrated that it has no interest is actually solving problems. Government has never solved any problem, ever. It is not governments job to care for the elderly, care for the sick, or provide an income for the poor, or feed the hungry. Government has no money of it's own, so has no right to give charity, or to provide for social justice, or to impose it's will on any person, or to run a family, or to decide how you will live or what you must believe.

Capitalism means that those who provide the greatest service get the biggest reward. In the United States we have a free public education system, that if you take advantage of, can take you a long way. If you choose instead to goof off, get pregnant, commit crimes, not study, take the easy path, it IS NOT the governments role to treat you like a child and care for you. Government is NOT your mother, although under the socialist model, is quickly becoming your big brother. Government DOES NOT owe you a thing, you are entitled to nothing that you have not earned yourself. If they didn't make you read it in school, read George Orwells "1984"

Life is not fair. Never was, never will be, ever. Capitalism rewards those who achieve, those who build, those who create, those that act responsibly, and those that take responsibility for themselves. Some people come into life with more advantages, wealth, intelligence, parents, and opportunities. That will never change. Ultimately, you find that successful people blow through the obstacles and make life work anyway, while most highly advantaged people fail, because they never learn or were never taught what it takes to stay successful.

The 99% is not the 99%. It's the 61% who are on the public dole. It's a bunch of kids who feel that they don't need to pay back student loans because they had the terrible fate to have to attend Harvard, or that big brother owes them a job because they slept through 4 years of college. PLEEEESE! Those of us who work our asses off to make a living, pay taxes, raise families, go to school in the evenings on our own dime, who TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to pay our own debt, who avoid stealing, who cross borders when we are invited, who don't smoke pot, shoot up drugs, take care of our own parents, give blood, and make the community work are really really sick of the endless whining and cry for handouts and freebies.

Capitalism works perfectly when government gets out of the way. Churches and charities exist to provide compassion for the truly needy. Family should take care of family and government does not need to be in our lives.

“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
― Benjamin Franklin

[whatthefunk]

Somehow I new that the liberal/socialist/democrat/progressive/communists would chime in and as expected, the arguments were all over the field, generally in irrelevant directions and usually with "social justice" as it's argument. The last set of arguments did not disappoint me.

Government can not solve problems. Long experience has demonstrated that it has no interest is actually solving problems. Government has never solved any problem, ever. It is not governments job to care for the elderly, care for the sick, or provide an income for the poor, or feed the hungry. Government has no money of it's own, so has no right to give charity, or to provide for social justice, or to impose it's will on any person, or to run a family, or to decide how you will live or what you must believe.

Capitalism means that those who provide the greatest service get the biggest reward. In the United States we have a free public education system, that if you take advantage of, can take you a long way. If you choose instead to goof off, get pregnant, commit crimes, not study, take the easy path, it IS NOT the governments role to treat you like a child and care for you. Government is NOT your mother, although under the socialist model, is quickly becoming your big brother. Government DOES NOT owe you a thing, you are entitled to nothing that you have not earned yourself. If they didn't make you read it in school, read George Orwells "1984"

I find it strange that you tell us that government can not solve problems, should not give charity, and should not provide anything for anybody and then go and talk about the wonders of the government funded public education system.... Also, dont forget that it is government that enforces laws to try to keep your kids out of trouble.

Life is not fair. Never was, never will be, ever. Capitalism rewards those who achieve, those who build, those who create, those that act responsibly, and those that take responsibility for themselves. Some people come into life with more advantages, wealth, intelligence, parents, and opportunities. That will never change. Ultimately, you find that successful people blow through the obstacles and make life work anyway, while most highly advantaged people fail, because they never learn or were never taught what it takes to stay successful.

Youre a bit off here and above where you said that capitalism provides the greatest rewards to those that provide the greatest service. I know that that is the theory, but it is not the actuality. Capitalism provides the greatest rewards to those who find the best ways to make profits. This could mean that they find ways to pay employees bare minimum, find tax loopholes, use patents to hold a monopoly, or find new ways to get rid of debt. A lot of companies that are successful do in fact provide great products and services, but certainly not all do.

Also, capitalism does not at all reward those who act responsibly. Massive amounts of environmental damage and sweat shops in overseas locations both show a considerable lack of responsibility.

Capitalism works perfectly when government gets out of the way.

Prove this to me.

[Qqmike]

Well, whatthefunk, you said it very well. I find MAHillsgrove's name-calling interesting. Apart from that, his theoretical view of capitalism is simplistic and naive. But that's how these discussions tend to go. Let's get government(s) out of the way and we'll all do a little anarchy while we are at it.

[Ole Juul]

Well, whatthefunk, you said it very well. I find MAHillsgrove's name-calling interesting. Apart from that, his theoretical view of capitalism is simplistic and naive. But that's how these discussions tend to go. Let's get government(s) out of the way and we'll all do a little anarchy while we are at it.

Yes, the word "capitalism" does get used in some seemingly "religious" ways. Even as someone who could easily be seen as somewhat of a leftie, I would love to see some capitalism - both here and in the US. Unfortunately capitalism and it's relative free enterprise, do not appear to be very compatible with the corporate environment that a few of us are enjoying today.

And, yes again, a little anarchy might be in order. To me that would mean that I have to take responsibility for my own actions. It also means that we ALL have to be responsible. I know lots of people would agree. However the definition of "all" does not seem to be so clear.

[rms]

Youre a bit off here and above where you said that capitalism provides the greatest rewards to those that provide the greatest service. I know that that is the theory, but it is not the actuality. Capitalism provides the greatest rewards to those who find the best ways to make profits. This could mean that they find ways to pay employees bare minimum, find tax loopholes, use patents to hold a monopoly, or find new ways to get rid of debt. A lot of companies that are successful do in fact provide great products and services, but certainly not all do.

Also, capitalism does not at all reward those who act responsibly. Massive amounts of environmental damage and sweat shops in overseas locations both show a considerable lack of responsibility.

+1 whatthefunk
MAHillsgrove's arguments would be sound IF the government(I'm not specific here) provided fair-play conditions. Calling those who amass huge profits from exploitation, business malpractice etc. "responsible" is a bit off-hand.

For instance, why there is no legislation that would mark M$ business practices criminal and treat it accordingly? They are trying to monopolize now, otherwise, free PC platform through blackmailing hardware vendors and it is OK and responsible?

As it is governments around the world serve no useful purpose and are only causing damage and suffering to all except the elect(read criminal) few.

[SteveRiley]

Too many uneducated, poor people reproducing => strain on resources; crime; cracks in social structure.
Toss in religion now (esp Islam extremists) => one helluva crazy mess.

And Rick Santorum seems perfectly fine with keeping people uneducated. "Going to college will turn you into a liberal commie atheist, just like Obama!"

Government can not solve problems. Long experience has demonstrated that it has no interest is actually solving problems. Government has never solved any problem, ever.

Actually, it can, and plenty of evidence supports this. Paul Collier offers a very good example.