Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

@SR, According to some Christians, He is. At the end of days (whenever that happens,the date or time is known only to God, the Father), He will judge all souls. There is also a saying that the Lord works (or moves) in mysterious ways.

This shows a difference between Catholics and whatever denomination Mazal belongs to (Don't leave, please answer my inquiry). Us Catholics, tho we'd feel God spared us, would accept the scientific answer also to what happened.

DYK Of course, it's almost that fisherman's tale of the one that got away, the fish somehow growing larger and larger. The idea is that as the oral stories continue to be orated through time, things get exeggerated. Then again, the early Hebrews had no scientific explanation as to what was occurring all those years ago, but today, we do.

[Jonas]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

@Jonas , yes obviously. It happened in hospital. There were nurses a doctor and my ex-wife also.

So why not thank them? Why neglect their work and effort in favor of god? I'd call that ignorance

No my friend , ignorance is what you all are living in. People should repent and turn back to God.
The greatest trick satan ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist and in so doing convincing the world that God doesn't exist. It pains me to see how many souls he is taking to hell with him.
There is only 1 truth and 1 way and that is Jesus Christ.

I am gonna remove myself from this community now as I will no longer be part of or look at the slander that is going on here and don't want any part of the judgement that is gonna come for it.
I leave you though pleading that you people stop living in your ignorance in the world's rules and ideas and that you repent and turn to God through Jesus Christ our Saviour. Please , please , please. Don't let satan drag you to hell with him by believing his lies.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I wont try to convince you or anyone else at this forum my beliefs, religious, political or other. I do find this discussion interesting, and I think that your opinion enriches the discussion. There are several discussions here with opinions I find much more disturbing then the religious, but I accept that people are different, it opens my mind to new ideas and thoughts - even if I don't agree with them. If you find my disagreement as slander .. I guess you'll just have to bring "The comfy chair!!" *taataaTAAAH!*scary music*

I assume that from your perspective that I'm sent by the devil to test your faith? What if we all would turn to God, who would be there to test our faith? If you think that i'll go to hell - so be it, I'll take my chance - Maybe I'll end up in front of the Blue Screen of Death for all eternity *the horror*

I find Ardvarks signature slightly offensive as I see it as religious propaganda, I respect it though as it's his opinion and I assume it doesn't break any forum rules. Though I had to make my own banner/signature so to avoid future clashes and possible real slander. No offence Ardvark, I disagree with it, but I respect your wish to express it. And I wont leave this forum because I disagree with someone.


Regarding politics, I would say that moving from M$ to GNULinux is indeed a political, stand point. I agree with the thoughts of Free Software, and that someone can own and patent ideas and innovation should be strictly limited, if not banned completely.

I doubt that there's a god and a devil but I do believe in demons - and they are cuuute
[img width=379 height=400]http://www.wikinoticia.com/images/alt1040/cdn.alt1040.com.files.2011.01.bsd-beastie.png[/img]

Edit; I realise that do a bit of mockery on religion, but I'm quiet tired of people trying to convince me to believe in this and that. However I wish that I could lay my life troubles and concerns in a divine power.

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, I also was forced to go through Sunday services (and Sunday school and summer Bible school and catechism and confirmation ...), Presbyterian, and, yes, my dad had the new Olsmobile and everything else that goes with this package. ;-)

"You know that party game where person #1 whispers a sentence to person #2, then #2 whispers it to #3, and so on? By the end of the line, the sentence barely resembles the original! THAT'S how I saw, and still see, the Bible." -- Interesting that you thought of that; I also had the same thoughts growing up.

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And, as I said before, belief is a powerful thing. It doesn't matter what you believe, it will take on a powerful truth for you, your life, your experiences-in-this-world. Believe in a god, in Jesus, in the devil, in the power of frogs to heal, in a shaman, in a mystic--it doesn't matter what you believe, it will manifest itself in how you experience this life. It's largely a neurological thing, though you might argue (perhaps correctly) more metaphysically that your beliefs open you up to perceiving alternate, parallel realities.

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SteveRiley, "But what about the unfortunate people who actually did die in that hospital on that day? Or other hospitals, or other days? Is Jehovah selective?"

Studies show that the saints were not favored either--they suffered and died from all the afflictions, including the big ones like cancer, at the same rate as the general population at the time.

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Reading this thread made me think of another thing my priest-buddy said to me once. I challenged him with evolution, in contrast to "God created the world ... " view of the Bible. Fr. J. responded, Yeah, but the Bible doesn't say HOW God created the world, allowing for the possibility that he did it through the Big Bang followed by evolution (for our Earth) ..." If you haven't figure it out by now, from Fr. J. I got something of "an underground" version of Catholicism, true teaching but not teachings the Church publicizes. An existential-mystical version (you can actually find older Catechisms, e.g., Dutch, complete with imprimatur slanted this way). Of course, I am not Catholic or anything really, more complicated story, spiced with science, metaphysics, the world's religions, mysticism, shamanism, neuro-psychology, et cetera, ad nauseum, and not relevant here.

- - - - -
Hell is driving to Whole Foods and finding they are out of your favorite fresh pastry on Saturday morning.

- - - - -
Best Devil movie I've seen, even plausible!, excellent movie:
The Devil's Advocate (Keanu Reeves, Al Pacino, Charlize Theron and Jeffrey Jones)
http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Advocat...4740914&sr=8-2

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Speaking of the Big Bang, it (the theory) was first suggested by Fr. Georges Lemaître of Belgium, a RC priest and physicist, in 1931.

Yeah, but doesn't say HOW God created the world, ...

It's not really "underground" when the last two popes, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI acknowledged it.

John Paul II said in 1996

Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical (Humani Generis, 1950 by Pius XII), new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis.

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Your are right, bsniadajewski. The RC Church has acknowledged such lately about evolution.
Another aspect of the existential-catechism approach to Christ is looking at Jesus as a man on this Earth, as a person, from a practical standpoint of his experience being-in-THIS-world. And so on, as it sounds like you are familiar.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Ever since, as a teenager, destined by my church to go into the ministry, I thought it odd that "God would not play tricks, like putting fossils in the ground on purpose to tempt you"...but vice the Devil did it..............

that one of the tenets of Islam is that Allah is a "trickster"..... doing things "just to see if you will go over to the dark side..."....

So.....that would mean that....if a "Christian" thinks that the fossils in the ground are there to "test your faith".....

then that Christian...is pretty close to being Muslim!

woodalwayswonderedaboutthatsmoke

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Hey guys (and any gals besides me!), I just wanted to jump in here and say I've been OVERWHELMED by the number of replies, combined with their amazing substance (and, in some cases, length). So I haven't managed to read all of them, nor have I replied. It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I was NOT expecting this kind of response. Keep 'em coming, though!

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I'm more interrested in stuff like "and then the five-headed demon greased me up and impaled me on a traffic post" or something like that.

Dude -- this really happened to me once! I even have evidence right here! http://www.youtube.com/aloadacrapola

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, a lot of examples that you've presented can be considered to be not be reasonable and should be done away with.

Such as...?

But as for food and clothing, people still need to eat and stay warm

But dead animals aren't necessary for either. I lived in Dallas, where it routinely gets VERY cold in the winter (ice, snow, single digit temperatures, the whole works), yet managed very nicely to both eat and stay warm, without abusing and/or killing any animals.

especially in the northern latitudes this time of year

Again, no dead animals needed.

and as SR said, there is no evidence that an all-plant (or all-meat for that matter) diet is best for us.

There doesn't need to be. As conscious, thoughtful human beings with the ability to reason, we should think in terms of not harming other sentient beings. But there's certainly a plethora of evidence showing that people who do not consume dead animals are healthier overall than those who do, and have a lower incidence of colon cancer, heart disease, and other ailments.

It is best that we use, not abuse, other animals for our benefit.

But therein lies the problem. As I've said repeatedly, animals *ARE* abused. The factory farming model of meat processing DEFINES cruelty to animals. Like I've said before, if the meat industry (and I'm talking about in the US) had nothing to hide, why would they be pushing through legislation that would make it a felony to take undercover pictures/video in their facilities? Don't you think that if they were treating the animals kindly and humanely they'd WANT to show that off? Wouldn't they WELCOME the opportunity to have unannounced pics/video taken at random so the public could see that they're not just putting on a publicity show?

And, if technology gets to the point that we don't need to test animals, including us human, all the better.

Technology has been at that point for a long time. Combine that with the FACT that, as I've said before, there can't be accurate extrapolation from data gathered by testing on non-human animals to how human animals will react. That has been proven time and time again.

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Well, it looks like Mazal did leave us. That's too bad. I wonder how he can square his need to dissociate from us presumed sinners while Jesus purportedly both ate with sinners and spent time among them in hell...


Anyway, I digress. DYK, I glanced through this thread again and the vegetarian thread. While you have posted some photos of truly unpleasant situations, in much of your argument you're making claims without providing substantiating evidence. For example:

• a plethora of evidence showing that people who do not consume dead animals are healthier overall than those who do

Individual instances are not compelling. Do you know of any long-term randomized controlled trials, adjusted for potential variables, that can point to such a conclusion? Or, possibly, is it not unreasonable to think that people who consciously decide to adopt a non-animal diet tend also to generally make greater overall investments in their health?

• have a lower incidence of colon cancer, heart disease, and other ailments

These would be perfect elements for just such a study! Speaking of studies, a quick search on PubMed returned 22. Since you've spent a lot of time studying this, can you recommend one of these, or perhaps something else?

• the factory farming model of meat processing

Please provide evidence that such methods are still routine in the US. This evidence cannot come from a politically motivated organization such as PETA -- their evidence is automatically suspect as they operate from a pre-existing conclusion and then work backwards, which is precisely the opposite of how science works.

• legislation that would make it a felony to take undercover pictures/video in their facilities

What are the relevant citations from the Congressional Record or other legislative documentation?

• unannounced pics/video taken at random so the public could see

Slippery slope, very close to the "I have nothing to hide" pablum promulgated by those in favor of surveillance societies. Plenty of reasons exist for not allowing random photography of business processes. For example, data centers that offer tours and permit photographs are often hacked through social engineering. For another example, a certain online retailer remains years ahead of its competition because of how it organizes its warehouses.

• technology has been at [the] point [where we don't need biological testing on animals] for a long time
• the FACT there can't be accurate extrapolation from data gathered by testing on non-human animals to how human animals will react. That has been proven time and time again

So then cite some evidence. How long has technology been at this point? Which specific assertions are actual facts? Yes, humans do not equal other animals, test outcomes are often unequal, and therefore the researchers know how to account for that in their analyses. What data supports the notion that any substitute, such as computerized modeling, will extrapolate better data?


DYK, I truly admire your passion; your willingness to defend your position is fabulous. Your defense lacks dispassionate evidence, though, and I suspect many of us here who love following these kinds of threads would enjoy anything you might be able to offer. So get to it, girl, show us the data!

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Well, it looks like Mazal did leave us. That's too bad. I wonder how he can square his need to dissociate from us presumed sinners while Jesus purportedly both ate with sinners and spent time among them in hell...

I hadn't named him. But now that you have, I no longer need to refer to him as "the sender of that PM."

Anyway, I digress. DYK, I glanced through this thread again and the vegetarian thread. While you have posted some photos of truly unpleasant situations, in much of your argument you're making claims without providing substantiating evidence.
...
DYK, I truly admire your passion; your willingness to defend your position is fabulous. Your defense lacks dispassionate evidence, though, and I suspect many of us here who love following these kinds of threads would enjoy anything you might be able to offer. So get to it, girl, show us the data!

I guess I hoped it wouldn't be necessary, since--at least in my world--the facts are so well known. Combine that with the fact that, years ago, I absolutely wore myself out doing just what you're asking, and really got tired of it, and basically thought it was unnecessary now. I mean, doesn't everyone know about the Mediterranean diet? How much larger a study is necessary than an entire population?:

Research has shown that the traditional Mediterranean diet reduces the risk of heart disease. In fact, a recent analysis of more than 1.5 million healthy adults demonstrated that following a Mediterranean diet was associated with a reduced risk of overall and cardiovascular mortality, a reduced incidence of cancer and cancer mortality, and a reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases.

For this reason, most if not all major scientific organizations encourage healthy adults to adapt a style of eating like that of the Mediterranean diet for prevention of major chronic diseases.

Here's the food pyramid that goes along with it:

[img width=266 height=400]http://www.smartassproducts.com/images/kubuntuforums/MayoClinic_mcdc6_pyramid_mediterranean.jpg[/img]

Note how it says to base every meal on the plant-based products.

Oh, the source. PETA? No. ALF? No. Some other radical "animal agenda" organization? No. How 'bout the Mayo Clinic?

Note that I don't approve of the dead animal part of the Mediterranean diet, small as it is, but the point here is that there's a HUGE study population consuming little to no red meat and they are, indeed, healthier than those who do.

Now about factory farms, the legislation that would make it a felony to take undercover pics, etc. Take a look at these Google search results. I'll let you and everyone else who's so inclined plod through them yourselves. You'll see a nice mixture of both ends--some cases where felony charges were brought against people BECAUSE of undercover filming at factory farms, and you'll also see references to the legislation I'm talking about. This article, from the New York Times does a pretty good job of summing it up.

I'd actually like to ask all of you who REFUSE to believe that factory farming not only is the norm [in the US], but that it is incredibly cruel to animals, to actually WATCH some of the videos you'll find in that search. Go ahead. Then let's talk about how...oh, it must have been staged! nothing like THAT could actually be allowed to happen! I'll be waiting...

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Oh, the source. PETA? No. ALF? No. Some other radical "animal agenda" organization? No. How 'bout the Mayo Clinic? ...the point here is that there's a HUGE study population consuming little to no red meat and they are, indeed, healthier than those who do

Now this is getting close. To claim that an assertion is a fact without providing at least one supporting reference doesn't do much to make an argument strong, especially when the claim is surrounded by considerable debate. Here, the Mayo Clinic reference is useful, if of somewhat law quality. By that I mean their own publication relies on the weasel word phrase "research has shown..." Well, which research? I want to see source data behind that study of 1.5 million people.

You'll see a nice mixture of both ends--some cases where felony charges were brought against people BECAUSE of undercover filming at factory farms, and you'll also see references to the legislation I'm talking about. This article, from the New York Times does a pretty good job of summing it up.

Comparitvely speaking, this is a better quality example than the Mayo Clinic article. It includes references to additional source materials, examines the evidence, and explains that the videos can be misleading because they're editied for effect. It exposes the hypocrisy of those opposed to the taping -- no actual evidence that those doing the taping are bringing diseases onto farms, for instance.

I guess I hoped it wouldn't be necessary, since--at least in my world--the facts are so well known. ...doesn't everyone know about the Mediterranean diet?

What does one mean by "know"? Avoiding the popular press is virtually impossible, so it's probably safe to assume most people have heard of the diet. It's also probably safe to assume that far fewer people understand the basis for its superiority. Actually, when something blooms very quickly in Oprah-ish-land, that's a red flag for people who prefer their science to be free of bias.

Take a look at these Google search results. I'll let you and everyone else who's so inclined plod through them yourselves.

And here is the larger point. To successfully sway a skeptic in a particular direction, one can't simply state "you're wrong; the fact is blah" and then go about one's merry way. Quite simply, the burden of proof rests with the person making the claim. In general, don't expect an audience to shoulder the burden of research when you make a claim. Back up the claim with credible references. Your argument will accrue greater credibility at the beginning, and your audience will be better equipped to engage in follow-up research.

[dibl]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

And here is the larger point. To successfully sway a skeptic in a particular direction, one can't simply state "you're wrong; the fact is blah" and then go about one's merry way.

Indeed.

To put a finer point on it, what would it take to successfully sway a true believer? May I offer this very thread as Exhibit A in evidence, that no one has changed his/her belief one whit, after 6 pages of "debate", i.e. exchange of semi-substantiated bold assertions?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, your aren't trying ro proselytize Steve into being a Vegan, are you?

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Wait. Let me finish my grilled beef burger and my fries cooked in lard before the preaching begins.