Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address:

In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.

I can.

I've changed people's minds about who to vote for. One example happened when I was in college, I spent a lot of time talking politics with a classmate; the 1984 presidential election was the first he could vote in. He was going to vote for Reagan, but he actually flipped and voted Mondale/Ferraro after our long talks. He was pro-choice and that was one of my selling points. So it CAN be done. Rarely, probably, but it is possible--if logic and reasoning are used, and both parties are willing to LISTEN.

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Good News [religion-wise]? Here's some, DYK-wise:
US to adopt strict new limits on chimp research
http://my.earthlink.net/article/hea?...5-51554a5169c0

The Bible? Best not to get mixed up or mixed in here. To get the "true" story, drill down to the level of a true Bible scholar, like a Jesuit [= the intellectuals of the Catholic Church] priest buddy of mine. They know. But most "followers" haven't a clue. I do not wish to get into it here too much but to outline: written long after the death of Jesus; from memory, hearsay, and stories, no true documentation as we know it; many contradictory passages, though many that are consistent; written FOR followers, for inspiration; never ever meant to be taken literally, written as poetry, symbolism and metaphor [the Ark?], and "story"; written by man (yeah, I know, inspired by the Holy Spirit ... proof of that?); never meant to be a text or an encyclopedic reference of any kind; and as my friend Fr. J. was fond of reminding people, we have no idea what Christ really, actually said! If you dig deep, all sorts of misconceptions arise, like about the threat and fear of Hell. I've heard more than one scholar say that the Bible [version?] doesn't even mention it! You don't have to dig real deep here; e.g. ...
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=85849
My eminent priest-friend (now deceased) once told me, If we [priests] served up the real stuff during Mass/homily, that little old lady flipping through her beads [rosary] in the front row would have a heart attack! Point is, the Bible is misused as both a reference and a promotional tool. It is a story. ALSO ... many Christian teachings are based not so much on the Bible story per se, but on the "decisions" of a particular church (Catholic, protestant, etc.)--they "made it up," they set doctrine, as in a catechism (perhaps made official with an imprimatur or something). My experience with most Christians is straightforward: Best to shut your mouth, leave them be, they do not care to study the study of it all, or to accept that 100% of it is interpretation (both the Bible as well as church-specific doctrinal tenets). Best not to suggest that Christ may have been a mystic or any such. (Some of my very best friends and relatives are very Christian, many the extreme--Catholics. I was raised Presbyterian, though the German family going way back was Catholic.)

Religion is a personal thing. No one should criticize someone for their spiritual beliefs. However, a spiritual belief is not scientific evidence. Belief is a powerful thing. Whatever you believe to be true for yourself becomes the truth for your experiencing-in-this-world. And it doesn't matter what you belief. Believe it hard enough and it becomes true for you and you will find plenty of "evidence" to support it. (As in: you can heal with belief. Any doctor knows this. It's called the placebo effect and is a valid, smart tool to use at times.)

I've already said too much, I'm afraid ...

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

That's OK ,Qq. That's what this sub-forum is for, to express opinions. If you're more in the center on things, you're going to get it form both sides.

DYK, a lot of examples that you've presented can be considered to be not be reasonable and should be done away with. But as for food and clothing, people still need to eat and stay warm, especially in the northern latitudes this time of year; and as SR said, there is no evidence that an all-plant (or all-meat for that matter) diet is best for us. It is best that we use, not abuse, other animals for our benefit. And, if technology gets to the point that we don't need to test animals, including us human, all the better.

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Another view on some of the animal-specific issues you guys have raised ...

We humans happen to have evolved as the "dominant" species (in ways that are obvious but that I shall leave undefined). Looking at the species that have evolved to date, examples abound where one has some sense-perceptual-intelligence abilities that are superior to those of say, a second species; and yet the second species has some that are dominant-superior to the first's. Radar (bats), sight, touch, smell (dogs! can dogs detect cancer?), ability to fly, to swim (and stay in water), intelligence (the pig, dog, chimp), and so on.

Humans happen to have evolved with what it takes to REALLY dominate another species--with malice aforethought, to enslave another species and do with it what we wish. Now, understanding evolution as we do (see the recent PBS special on it, btw?), let's imagine that out of the probabilistic unfolding events of the cosmic soup, that another species evolved that was similar to humans. Where it dominates us in some ways, and we dominate it in some ways. But imagine that this hypothetical species dominated us in a superior, controlling way, in a way that determines that it could enslave and use us as it wishes, and with a sense of consciousness and intelligence (not simply random acts of eating us on instinct for survival, as might be the case of being attacked by a bear or a lion). Not such a far-fetched vision, imo.

Now, how would THAT be for us humans! Boy, did we ever luck out this time!!!

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Ok,
I'll throw this out for discussion.

I would imagine that there is no person here who is college educated that would argue that "historical research" is not "valid".

There are a relatively well established "set of rules" for "historical research" in terms of what is acceptable evidence and what is not.

I have NEVER been in a history class, and I took history up through the "History of the Renaissance and Reformation" a junior level( undergraduate ) class......in which....it was not a GIVEN that ....oral tradition is acceptable as....

Primary information...... the best kind is primary information....

In other words if a tribesperson in say...... Africa.....is telling a story about a Chieftan killing a lion twenty generations ago and the story meets all of the guidelines of what is acceptable for "primary information" from "oral tradition"..... then the story is "real".

The Chieftan, did indeed, kill the lion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

Now what is curious.....is that the VERY PROFESSOR.... who proudly discusses all of the tenets of the oral tradition as being acceptable as PRIMARY information....... and gives as an example the Chieftan's story from dozens of generations ago.....

Strangles on the "oral tradition of the historical Jesus".

There is even a sublink in the above link to ...."the oral tradition and the historical Jesus" and one will note....

that at the bottom.... are the very same requirements for what is acceptable as PRIMARY information....and it does NOT say that the oral tradition about Jesus is not acceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_tr...storical_Jesus

So why is it that oral traditon is GOOD when talking about tribal chieftans and NOT good when talking about Jesus?

Just a question which I throw out for discussion...

woodsmoke

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Woody,

Two things going on.

Who cares about meeting certain arbitrary (agreed upon) standards for "oral tradition"?
Well, many people may care.

BUT, satisfy those standards or not (say wrt to Jesus), and the Bible still does not tell us anything about what is "true" or factual about god, spirituality, Jesus the Christ XP, what exactly Jesus actually said, and so on.

The Bible MAY satisfy some standards for reporting/recording per "oral tradition." So what?!

Religion is an interesting phenomenon. There are tons of religions around the world, some perhaps not even recorded (or reported) yet, say in primitive tribes (where we might speak interchangeably about religion and spiritual practices). What makes one more "right" than any other? Nothing. (Except ... does Might Make Right? Let's conquer & convert them!) What makes Christianity different is that the mystic, the messenger, the teacher, the prophet--Jesus--claimed to also be the [son of] god [through the trinity].

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Hi qq

a) how come you didn't mention Islam's pay the tax, convert or die? Or Shinto's obvious problem with "other Asian groups"?

b) I didn't say anything about whether the religion of Jesus was "true" I was merely posting about the obvious hypocrisy between the oral traditions of one "group" being acceptable and the oral traditions of "another group" not being acceptable.

c) as to "who cares".... well, if one does not accept that history "exists" then one is left re-inventing the Ipod each and every day. And, that is the sine qua non of the "elite".....that history is that which a historian says is history.

In other words, the holocaust did not happen because a guy says it did not.

And that is precisely why "history books" are being "rewritten" this very day.

And, again, the "elites" say...."well we need to remove this because of.....".....

And figure that it will never happen that some day what THEY say is history is removed.

But, again, to return to the point of my post, it was about the hypocrisy of accepting one kind of argument.....that there is "no proof"...... while at the same time NOT accepting the other argument of the oral traditon, which in ....every other case....is acceptable.

just providing it for discussion.

woodsmoke

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I see what you meant now. Makes sense. (Seems I read INTO it an implied message re truth in this specific instance (of Jesus talk))!

[Jonas]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Wow the steam thread

A friend of mine who's brother got married in Brazil went there for the wedding and the brides Brazilian father first laid out the rules: "we don't discuss politics and football*, those topics get too heated". Mind that football* is religion in Brazil, and many parts of the world. (I've donated a football* outfit to the pope, just to prove my point I'll dig out a picture later)

I would call myself a agnostic, I don't have any religious belief, and find most( or all) religions as authoritarian especially the monotheistic ones, though I do find religious writings interesting from a social and historical point of view. I have only read parts of the bible and the quran, but not the torah, but would love to have the time to read the Talmud, just recently translated to english. I would consider anyone who follow a book/teaching word by word - be it religion, metaphysical philosophy or any science - narrow minded.


I enjoy a heated discussion.

I stopped eating any living creature about three years ago, before that I didn't eat much meat anyway. But contrary to my belief the turning point was of emotional character, rather then logical. I like to cook stews and keep in the freezer, so when I do I cook quite a lot. The time 3 years ago, I made a big pot of pasta sauce with minced meat and 2 large pans of lasagne, then I fell asleep in front of the TV, when I woke up there was a cooking show from China with a cooking contest. The contest was to fry/cook a large fish as quickly as possible and serve it, within about a minute. They "skinned"(removed the scales) the fish - alive, put some frying "sauce" on it - alive, then fried it - alive and last they served it - alive (well at least it was twitching on the plate(!)). I woke up to that, and from that moment it was the end of me eating living beings. My colleagues at work had a lot of lasagne for lunch that week, and my friends dog got a bag of nice lamb chops . I still cook large stews and such, but with beans and vegetables.

I really don't find this story or argument really valid, as it lacks some sort of logical argument and is all based on emotion. Other logical arguments however would be that the energy consumed to feed, breed and transport these animals is greater then the energy the consumer gain from it. Another, to me valid argument, is that here in Europe the fishing industry has been fishing out the sea, we're consuming more fish then the sea can reproduce. This has made that huge fishing boats from Europe go to the waters outside Africa and fish with contracts from the states there. This leaves local fishers without waters to fish in, making them without any income. Which in turn make them look for other "incomes" such as pirating and taking westerners sailing there as hostages.

I don't blame anyone who would take any action at hand to survive, and I would never blame individuals. I don't blame or condemn my friends who eat meat either, I would only blame the industry and the "systems" (like EU fishing industry who drain the sea for our consumption)

As for animals and sciences, I really doubt that there's is a actual need to test on animals, I would think that it's just a common (old) practice and is way cheaper then any other method.

One thing to keep in mind though speaking of animals in poor living conditions brought upon by humans is that animals in their natural environment, in the wild, is a really rough place to live, they suffer and starve on a regular basis.

*Football as the sport where you play with your feet, not the one with a flat ball you play with your hands

[dibl]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I really don't find this story or argument really valid, as it lacks some sort of logical argument and is all based on emotion. Other logical arguments however would be that the energy consumed to feed, breed and transport these animals is greater then the energy the consumer gain from it.

Right here you have captured an essential (i.e. scientifically provable) characteristic of human behavior. As taught in every serious sales training course, the purchase decision is made from emotion, and then subsequently we justify it with logic. I suspect that sequence is applicable to other "buy" decisions as well, including those where we buy a dietary regimen.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

....
I've changed people's minds about who to vote for. ....

Just curious... has anyone ever changed YOUR your position on politics? Not who to vote for... it really doesn't matter if a Conservative votes for Romney or Perry, for example, or if a Liberal votes for Obama or Hillary. They really haven't changed their views, only the person they feel best represents their views.

[Jonas]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I really don't find this story or argument really valid, as it lacks some sort of logical argument and is all based on emotion. Other logical arguments however would be that the energy consumed to feed, breed and transport these animals is greater then the energy the consumer gain from it.

Right here you have captured an essential (i.e. scientifically provable) characteristic of human behavior. As taught in every serious sales training course, the purchase decision is made from emotion, and then subsequently we justify it with logic. I suspect that sequence is applicable to other "buy" decisions as well, including those where we buy a dietary regimen.

Interesting point, however I knew of the energy issue and the fact that seas have been polluted and fished out before I made the decision, so logically I should have been a vegetarian before I saw that on TV. Convenience made me eat meat before. Not sure if I understood you, but that I was "bought" by emotions (?) I wouldn't mind that in any way however - I am a human and behaving like one .. at least last time I checked

Maybe I'm trying to "sell" vegetarianism here (?) - possibly, I think the world would be more at "balance" if we didn't eat living beings, but I'm no preacher, nor do I think I can change peoples ideas and opinions. In that sense I agree with you - there's no s.c free will.

[ScottyK]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

And that is precisely why "history books" are being "rewritten" this very day.

And, again, the "elites" say...."well we need to remove this because of.....".....

And figure that it will never happen that some day what THEY say is history is removed.

That's why I like to study the original documents (Constitution, Declaration of Independence, etc). I'd rather read the actual documents myself, rather than through the lens (and bias) of somebody else.

I would also like to study the Bible as it was written in the original language, however I can't read Hebrew and Greek. But the good thing is that we live in a world where there is nothing stopping me from learning it myself. I don't have to depend on what the priest says.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I haven't [yet] read the replies posted after my [typically verbose] one from last night, but there's something I forgot to mention: *I* have had my mind changed. Yes! It's not only possible, but true!

When I was in college, my closest friend/study buddy/classmate was a young Indian woman. Indian as in from India. She and her family were Hindu. She had never eaten or worn or used dead animal based products. We [our other close buddies] would rib her endlessly about how *certain* animals were meant to be eaten and worn. I was an avid meat eater. I'd been brought up that way. My husband and I liked nothing better than barbecuing giant porterhouse steaks and digging in. I wore leather shoes and belts and purses. We brought our daughter up eating meat. But my Hindu friend, over time, told me a lot about their beliefs, including how all animals--human and non-human--have souls, and that they could not kill or eat anything with a soul. She couldn't eat eggs because of that, but could use other dairy products like milk and yogurt. At the time, I didn't think I was being affected by anything she was saying. A few years later, after learning the truth about how animals in this country (the US) end up neatly packaged in supermarkets as disembodied slabs of "meat," her words came back to me. I remembered her passion and compassion. The more I learned, and the more I recalled about things she had said years earlier, the more it all melded and made sense. She DID change my mind...it just took a few years for it to sink in.

I've often wished that I hadn't lost touch with her. I'd love for her to know that just two years after the last time we saw each other I turned veg, and that her stories about animals' souls had a lot to do with it.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Hi ScottyK

I agree about reading as close to the original as possible.

woodsmoke