Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Oh no! It's the thread that will never die! Now we begin a debate over (non-)assisted suicide... Carry on, but as always, be kind

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

As I was posting, I DID think about that! Animal cruelty -- meat vs plant -- and now suicide as an exit strategy from terminal diagnosis!

[eggbert]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I think it is not fear of death but fear of dying, fear of the process of dying.

Not so much the fear of dying, but the fact that I HAVE to die someday because it is preordained by nature is incredibly depressing. So much to learn and experience, and yet we have such a ridiculously short lifespan.

My hope is that one day humanity will figure out a way around this aging BS and give mother nature a big "screw you"

[HalationEffect]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

I think it is not fear of death but fear of dying, fear of the process of dying.

Not so much the fear of dying, but the fact that I HAVE to die someday because it is preordained by nature is incredibly depressing. So much to learn and experience, and yet we have such a ridiculously short lifespan.

My hope is that one day humanity will figure out a way around this aging BS and give mother nature a big "screw you"

This made me think of what Thomas Hobbes said in his book Leviathan, on the subject of the life of a man, describing it as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short".

Personally, I find the combination of mortality with sufficient intelligence to comprehend that fact to be an especially cruel cosmic joke at our expense.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

During my lecture on "animals" and particularly hominids I ask if someone knows what scientists consider to be the main difference between say the Orangutan and the human and at least a few students bring up the opposable thumb thing.

I then mention "laughter" and the students then go along with that but usually someone brings up that anyone who has kept a dog or a cat for a while knows that they laugh.

And then I bring up that humans can comprehend that they will die.

That tends to sober them up a little.

The voyage of life by Thomas Cole

[img width=400 height=263]http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnd7cbDwol1qfexaro1_500.png[/img]

woodsmoke

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

So what is it that we fear/dread or are made anxious about? Well, it is, certainly, having a terminal diagnosis. But after that panic subsides, what is it really? I think it is not fear of death but fear of dying, fear of the process of dying.

Yes, I agree. Something I realized the morning of the brain surgery was that I was COMPLETELY calm. I mean really, totally calm. We knew the odds were bad (1 in 50 chance of dying in or soon after surgery), but I had this epiphany: "If I die on the table, *I* won't know about it!" As dying goes, that would have to be a good way--going in as a coherent, functioning person and then dying while under anesthesia. Years earlier, at 21 and 22, when I nearly died from gyn issues, I was too caught up in the moment--thinking about my husband raising our daughter alone if I died--to dwell on the fact that I had almost died. Now, watching my mother's decline, I'm really struggling with...just struggling. I see a woman who has been blessed with good health her whole life basically fading away before my very eyes. She has stated repeatedly "I wish I were dead!" I had her doctor up her Celexa (anti-depressant) last week. Even though she has a flair for the melodramatic, her comments about wanting to die have correlated with her overall decline, and her increase in falls. I'm not taking it lightly, yet at the same time I'm asking myself how the hell do I know what's best for her? If I were in her condition...I wouldn't want to go on living. Plain and simple, really.

It would be different if there were a choice to self-terminate at will or by an order (e.g., an Advance Directive). I believe the Germans have finally implemented such (so a German friend tells me)? I mean, if you knew you could simply push a button when ready (take a guaranteed terminating cocktail of pills), accepting and dealing with terminal disease (or aging) would have one element of dread/panic removed. As the saying goes ... we do it for our pets ... Calling your veterinarian and barking into the telephone might get results, but it's a bit humiliating ...

I'm 100% in favor of legal, assisted suicide. In my experience, some people who oppose it don't understand the whole concept. They're under the misconception that doctors will wildly be killing people on whims, and that families who think their relative is too much trouble will have them euthanized--against their will. NONSENSE. The idea is that a lucid, coherent person who's reached the end of their rope due to physical problems should be able to CHOOSE when/how to die. They should have the right to a painless, peaceful, dignified death. I admired Dr Jack Kevorkian for all he did for the assisted suicide movement. I saw a documentary several years ago--I THINK it was filmed in the Netherlands--that profiled people up to and including their planned deaths via legal assisted suicide. It was extremely touching and reinforced my strong belief that humans deserve to die in a way that makes sense to them. The people who oppose it because it "interferes with God's plan" are being completely illogical...in my [not necessarily very humble] opinion. It's not THEIR business. If THEY are dying of bone cancer and its horrendous pain, and THEY want to keep plugging away, more power to them. But they should have no say in what someone ELSE decides is enough.

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, "The people who oppose it because it "interferes with God's plan" are being completely illogical...in my [not necessarily very humble] opinion. It's not THEIR business."

I agree. Which brings up another point about radical-right-[wrong!-] wing Christians: they are too vocal; they need to shut up, pay & pray, mind their own beliefs, try to do good, and NOT force (through politics & laws) their religious choices on others.

Friend of mine reads Carl Jung a lot and said the other day that Jung makes a point that maturing (in life) involves accepting and integrating the prospect of one's death. I found this quote, which is kind of along those lines: "Shrinking away from death is something unhealthy and abnormal which robs the second half of life of its purpose." - Carl Jung

You sure don't have to look very far to find examples where our finiteness is right there in our face. Anyone who has had any halfway serious health issues or health "scares" knows that. After a certain age, perhaps 50-ish?, going to a doctor or getting a diagnostic imaging is a real crap shoot, one that may put you face-to-face with the prospect you are not invincible. Of course, as a friend is fond of reminding people, the problem is that you have health insurance! If you don't have it and you avoid going to the doctors, you won't have any of those nagging diagnoses! He's right, of course. How many people avoid the docs and die "naturally," perhaps of some ailment, where a biopsy might reveal all sorts of issues like tumors, obstructions, heart issues, and such. On the other hand, if you don't mind the medical dance, it can also "save" your life, extend it, make you more comfortable as you age. Complicated issues.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

.....
And then I bring up that humans can comprehend that they will die.
That tends to sober them up a little.
....

Those under 25 or so tend to think of themselves as immortal. That's because most have never seen someone die, except for watching news video clips, which, they think, "will never happen to them." Or, they consider their death so far into the future they don't have to think about it. That brings up:

Life Is Short:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6zgQH3tUKk

which, from my 70 year view point, pretty much describes how the last 70 years seems to have "flown" by.

Having reached "three score and ten", I am now venturing into the "by reason of strength, four score" territory. I am not afraid of dying. It's just a fact of life. The actual dying process isn't going to last more than 5 minutes, and I've had extremely painful tooth aches last longer than that. Slowly becoming incapacitated is an aggravation, to be sure, but we humans are able to adjust to lots of difficult circumstances, some draconian (as North Korea reminds us), and even be happy about them.

I tried a health club membership and worked out on the weights, used the medicine balls, jogged and swam. All that did was make the movements in my hips, knees, wrists and elbows painful. It took more than a year after I quite going to the club before the pain went away. SAM-E helped to eliminate joint pain, and helps with my memory loss. Gains in muscular strength were small and short lived. In old age muscle mass is hard to gain and easy to lose. People have different genes. Some benefit from physical exercise, some do not. In the long run I concluded that exercising was taking time out of the life I now have and exchanging that time for a "promise" of more or better life "later on" wasn't worth the inconvenience, and the promise is not "iron clad". Jim Fixx and "Pistol Pete" Maravich never knew they had lethal heart problems, even after years of vigorous exercise. Maravich's problem was congenital. Fixx, despite years of jogging 5 miles per day, had serious atherosclerosis: one coronary artery blocked 95%, a second 85%, and a third 70%.

Genes and circumstance have a lot to do with longevity, but "past performance is no guarantee of future results". My dad lived to 94. My wife's mother lived to 93. My wife inherited what killed her father at 72 years of age, Mitral valve prophase relapse. The three cords holding that valve broke over a period of 30 years. The last cord broke a couple weeks before her heart surgery five years ago. My wife's cow valve is guaranteed for another 15 years! If I live to 85 I will see my 6 year old grandson graduate from HS, my 10 year old finish college, and I will see if my 17 year old grandson will be successful in his goal of becoming a university professor of music. That would be nice, but 100 years from now all of them will be dead, like me.

The next 15 years will reveal the solution to the pending global oil shortage and religious threats to universal freedom and gender equality, to say nothing of big government shredding the Constitution in order to keep us "safe" from terrorist threats. Even our own minds and thoughts won't be a private sanctuary and in the future we may face conviction for "thought" crimes. I am curious to see how all of this turns out.

I have also been witness and party to the rise of the PC. It reached its zenith about 5 years ago and has been in steady decline every since. I am typing on a 3.5 year old Sony notebook that cost $1,080 brand new. Setting on the desk next to this notebook is my new notebook. At 17.3" it has a display with a diagonal 1" larger than this Sony. The HD is 650GB. The RAM is 4GB. It is an energy efficient i3-370M CPU. It cost me $350. Where are prices going? I just read of a $25 mobo with Linux preinstalled, the Rasberry-Pi. It will be interesting to see how Microsoft kills that one, and what the results will be.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, "The people who oppose it because it "interferes with God's plan" are being completely illogical...in my [not necessarily very humble] opinion. It's not THEIR business."

I agree. Which brings up another point about radical-right-[wrong!-] wing Christians: they are too vocal; they need to shut up, pay & pray, mind their own beliefs, try to do good, and NOT force (through politics & laws) their religious choices on others.

Hold on while we change channels... Okay, let's talk about abortion! A few days ago I read that Rick Perry now says abortion should be illegal and unavailable with NO exceptions, not even for rape or incest. He is a perfect example of bowing to the extreme right [wrong] wing of his party. Which leads back to the idea of people taking it upon themselves to make decisions for others, based on THEIR religious beliefs. Whether it's the anti-abortion crowd, or the "homosexuality is a sin!" crowd, or the "assisted suicide interferes with God's plan" crowd, they're all trying to push their religious beliefs onto the rest of us. Whatever happened to the concept of separation of church and state?

You sure don't have to look very far to find examples where our finiteness is right there in our face. Anyone who has had any halfway serious health issues or health "scares" knows that.

Indeed.

After a certain age, perhaps 50-ish?, going to a doctor or getting a diagnostic imaging is a real crap shoot, one that may put you face-to-face with the prospect you are not invincible.

See, I did it the other way around! I started out my adult life with a very serious illness, and faced my own mortality starting at 21/22. Since then, having test after test has just become a routine part of my life--one that I despise, but a necessary evil. For example, since the brain tumor was removed in April 2009, I've had either 4 or 5 (I've lost track) brain MRIs (which I hate...that whole "face in the horror movie looking cage to keep your head still" freaks me out). So I don't get to experience the perhaps-after-50ish perspective on all that.

Of course, as a friend is fond of reminding people, the problem is that you have health insurance! If you don't have it and you avoid going to the doctors, you won't have any of those nagging diagnoses!

Or if you DO have health insurance but don't follow recommended guidelines...like my mother. She's NEVER had a colonoscopy. I had my first one at 30. My uncle--my mom's brother--had cancerous polyps removed. You'd think THAT would have been the catalyst for her to get checked what with him being her closest blood relative and all, but, no! And what I don't get is why her doctors have never nagged her about getting it done. Mine do.

He's right, of course. How many people avoid the docs and die "naturally," perhaps of some ailment, where a biopsy might reveal all sorts of issues like tumors, obstructions, heart issues, and such. On the other hand, if you don't mind the medical dance, it can also "save" your life, extend it, make you more comfortable as you age. Complicated issues.

Yes, very complicated. We'll never know how many people, especially older ones, whose deaths are chalked up to "natural causes" actually had some disease that could've been treated.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with anything, just an interesting [to me] tidbit to throw out: The hospital, St Vincent, where I had my brain tumor removed is the same hospital where I was born. AND on the same floor. The sixth floor used to be the maternity floor, but now it's where brain surgery is done and it houses the Doheny ICU where I went post-op. My husband and I got a kick out of telling everybody at the hospital that I'd been born there, on THAT exact floor! And it was also on the same day of the month--April 8 for the surgery, December 8 when I was born. Like I said, it's interesting to me!

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

....
A few days ago I read that Rick Perry now says abortion should be illegal and unavailable with NO exceptions, not even for rape or incest. He is a perfect example of bowing to the extreme right [wrong] wing of his party.
...

If Perry bowed to Right Wing extremists then you must consider his support of Al Gore in the 1988 campaign bowing to Left Wing extremists. What that implies is that Perry is a person without a moral or ethical core, who is willing to say anything to anyone in order to get their vote and get elected. He has been on both sides of about every issue I've heard him pontificate on. But, for the most part, he's not any different than most of the other Republicans running for office, or Democrats for that matter. A pox on all their houses.

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

"interferes with God's plan"

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways." --God.

If the almighty him/her/itself seems so compelled to remain adamantly inscrutable, why should any of us care?

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Back to the health benefits of a veg* diet (vegan or vegetarian).

I have not had the time to pursue this the way it should be, but I decided to post it this way. I am not claiming anything for anyone but myself! If YOU wish to get to the bottom of it, then you should pursue the research. I feel like DYK in this regard: if you are tuned into this stuff, you encounter tons of data and references to support the advantages of a veg* diet over an animal-food based diet; and I for one didn't catalog it all through the years.

However, if you are curious, or if you have health goals or health problems, and if you would like to pursue the subject of whether a veg* diet might be right for you (and the why's), then why not start with the Fuhrman book? He's got the credentials (http://www.drfuhrman.com/ask/default.aspx) , has done the research, is a recognized leader in the field, and has a track record of successes with patients. It's a good starting point for your own research and may save you some time.
Again,
Eat to Live: The Amazing Nutrient-Rich Program for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss
http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Live-Amazi...5351164&sr=8-1
and
http://www.drfuhrman.com/

Doing a quick estimate, it looks like he included about 800 references (in this book) to research articles in scholarly, professional, peer-reviewed journals supporting the conclusions and assertions in his book. This includes the big studies (e.g., the China Project) and epidemiological research.

Cut to the quick ... To summarize a few key contentions, mine and from the book, it would be the following.

Is a vegetarian or vegan diet healthier than a diet that contains a small amount of animal products?
Fuhrman (on page 296 of the book edition I linked to): "I do not know for sure. A preponderance of evidence suggests that either a near-vegetarian diet or a vegetarian diet is the best. In the massive China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a reduction in cancer rates continued to be observed as participants reduced their animal-food consumption all the way down to one serving per week. Below this level, there is not enough data available ... Whether or not you are a strict vegetarian, your diet must be plant-predominant for optimal health and to maximally reduce your cancer risk." And, "For those not willing to give them up, animal products should be limited to twelve ounces or less per week. Otherwise, the risk of disease increases considerably." (Elsewhere in his writing, he "allows" 10%-20% of your calories to be from animal products. Sounds like a large amount to me--12 ounces of meat per week? Isn't that 3 or 4 servings?) Page 91: "... to be clear, following a strict vegetarian diet is not as important as eating a diet rich in fruits and vegetables."

Do you think everyone will eventually embrace this way of eating?
Fuhrman (on page 313 of the book edition I linked to): "No. The social and economic forces that are pulling our population toward obesity and disease will not be defeated by one book...at least be aware of the [research-based] facts ... Don't add stress to your life by trying to persuade every person you meet to eat the same way you do."

Major conclusions supported in his book (and in about every other source I have ever read):
Diet impacts disease.
Consumption of animal fats is linked to higher cancer rates (in several cancer groups--p. 99 for the list).
Low consumption of animal fats AND proteins is linked to reduced heart disease/heart attacks.
High consumption of animal fats AND proteins is linked to increased heart disease/heart attacks.
Some key diseases affected by diet (veg* vs meat-based): heart disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, kidney disease, blood pressure.
Many diseases are caused by (or associated with) obesity (as defined by BMI and such measures).
"The reason people are overweight is too little physical activity, in conjunction with a high-calorie, low-nutrient, diet. Eating a diet with plenty of low-fiber, calorie-dense, foods such as oil and refined carbohydrates, is the main culprit." (Veg* diet is a high nutrient-per-calorie diet.)

The only way to significantly increase life span ... (pp 26ff) ...
"The evidence for increasing one's life span through dietary restriction is enormous and irrefutable. Reduced caloric intake is the only experimental technique to consistently extend maximum life span ... as well as prevention of chronic illnesses ... fat and protein restriction have an additional effect on lengthening life span ... eating less prolongs life as long as nutrient intake is adequate. All other longevity ideas are merely conjectural and unproven."

All this, esp high nutrient-per-calorie criteria, favors a plant-based diet.

So that's where I stand on the subject. I don't have time or the inclination to type out or look up and link to all the references; you can do it, starting with Fuhrman's reference list included in the book.

I don't think it's a big deal to restrict eating animal products; it's easy enough to do; and doing so might make you feel better physically, probably will help you control your weight, probably will help you prevent disease; might help you live somewhat longer and healthier as you age (through weight control/calorie restriction). It's the easiest way to achieve high nutrient-per-calorie (and so prevent disease and weight gain). As Fuhrman says somewhere in the book, it's not an all-or-nothing deal, allowing some animal products, along with other goodies (e.g., nuts, seeds, avocados, perhaps slight amounts of added oils such as olive oil, and so on).

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

The the beef jerky I make and enjoy is out, eh?

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

The meatballs I just enjoyed, too?

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

As I said elsewhere here, my 10%-20% naughty list includes green chile cheeseburgers (a true gourmet topic out here in the Southwest), carne adovada (pork marinated and cooked in red chile as a dish or as a burrito), chicken and pork adobo (Asian dish, marinated in vinegar and honey and spices, basically), pizza (the cheese sometimes and sometimes some meat(s), but I try to go veggie on pizza also, at least half the time), and some fish. Dad was meat-and-potatoes, as is my family, I was raised that way. There are ethical issues (ref.: DYK), and while I try to observe them, I do have my 10-20% fudge factor. FWIW, when we do eat meat, we get it from a natural/health food store (Whole Foods or a local store known to have its own farm)--humane conditions, free range, no hormones, no added chemicals, whatever the right words are, we got 'm, etc. (Most people don't realize that "ham" is not red or pink and super-dooper moist and mushy soft--it's grey and somewhat dry-grainy-chewy! On the very few occasions we buy it, we get it all natural, fully cured, no added nonsense, $7/pound.)

Around the globe, there are many cultures where people can't afford meat, or it's not readily available. (And they do show much healthier stats than we do in cancers, heart disease, diabetes, and osteoporosis). When a family can afford to buy meat, it is used as a flavoring, where they carefully dice it down to small pieces, brown it, and let it cook along with the 95+% of veggies (and or beans) in a cooking pot.