Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

"because the Bible says so!" ... if the Bible says it's wrong, it's wrong!

Iron age fairy tales. Tales written eons before:

years of research showing anatomical differences between the brains of gays and straights, and other data supporting the concept that gays are born that way,

Faith is no longer necessary in the modern world. Fortunately we now have:

Scientists want to understand the nature of the universe. Questions about the universe lead to questions about matter. Questions about matter lead to questions about energy. Questions about energy lead to questions about the very concepts of time and space.

Much of which we now know: we understand why eclipses occur, how continents shift, and how to reliably measure vast distances. Science will continue to find more answers, and in no case will:

a "divine" observer outside it all

be an answer.

However, on the subject of logic vs emotion-intuition-other modes of discovery though, boy, as I age, I see the limits of logic... We do not live in a world that is anywhere close to being explained by logic alone.

What else is there? Perhaps it's our understanding of logic that needs refinement. On that point, I very much recommend the book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. I'm about 1/3 through this now. It distills the science behind thinking in ways that surprise and delight me on nearly every page.

The most unreliable witness is the eye witness.

Kahneman spends a fair amount of time explaining why the brain behaves this way.

[de_koraco]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Nup, people usually have ill-informed and downright stupid political attitudes. Since it's not exactly their fault, due to "politics" in general being a complex mechanism and them not having the time or inclination to meander through its slimy paths enough to reach an informed attitude, it's hard to hold it against them. You get kinda POd when informed people are evil, but that's the way of life.

[ScottyK]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

A good friend of mine from my active duty days is over on the left side of the political spectrum. We used to debate back and forth, and have some great conservations. But both of us got married, had kids, and life because busy.

Now neither one of us has the time nor desire to argue politically, so we've both dropped it. We're not going to change the other persons mind anyway, so why waste time on it. We've got plenty of other subjects to discuss that we both find fascinating.

This forum seems to be the happy exception, but my experience has been that folks of an opposite political spectrum as myself will take great pleasure in calling me every name in the book, but demand that I "tolerate" their beliefs. Whatever. You're civil to me, I'm civil right back. Turn nasty? You're ignored and life goes on. We're on this earth on average 75 years, why waste it with a bunch of heated arrangements. I'd rather spend the time with my family.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Very interesting replies so far.

Would anyone care to use the anti-abortion example from my OP to hypothesize about how they would handle a similar situation? In other words, whatever's a "hot button" issue for you, if you were presented with a potential client on the opposite side of the spectrum on that issue, how would you react? What would you do? Would you put your personal feelings aside for the greater good (the company's bottom line), or would you refuse to accept them as a client? I chose the former, and then made myself feel better about it by upping my contributions to Planned Parenthood.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

If one is a true professional then one just "sucks it up" and gets on with the task at hand.

If one can't do that then one should change jobs or start one's own business and then one can, with clear conscience, do what one wilt.

However, the larger person would be to not let the other "side" irritate one in the first place.

woodsmoke

[Qqmike]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

One of my best friends (also a technical sort of guy) is an avid hunter. Not only do I not hunt, but I'm philosophically kind of more-or-less sort of Buddhist in respecting all life (yep, including those insects that get into my house and the plants and trees). And, he also leans far more right than left in politics. Nonetheless, we both respect each others choices, are able to each express our own views, have a productive discussion, drop the subject, then return to our friendship mode unharmed, no damage done, best of friends. We do this several times a week. When he goes hunting, I'm supportive and upbeat about his enthusiasm and his trip (and he knows how I feel about if for myself). When he starts heading far right in a discussion, I add my two cents worth of moderate-left views, and sometimes I agree with him, as sometimes he agrees with me. That's it, done deal, end of discussion, and we move on beyond it.

Making YOUR choices is easy in life (generally speaking). Making the choice to accept the choices of others can be difficult and require some effort, some perspective, some acceptance, and maybe a touch of cosmic humor. Sometimes, it helps to be drunk.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

....
Yep, I went to the polls in 2004 knowing full well that Erik and I were negating each other's votes, but I went anyway.
...

BUT, IF you didn't vote to negate his vote he would have won!

The best thing about your relationship with him is that even though your political view points are different, you respect each other and remain civil. It is the increasing lack of civility in political discourse, driven by extremists on both the Right and the Left, that is creating an incendiary environment. Comments sections on news articles almost immediately disintegrate into name calling and other personal insults. There is one common factor in the postings from extremists, both R & L, their inability to create and express a coherent thought. The more radical and frothing a post is, the worse the grammar and spelling.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

....
Yep, I went to the polls in 2004 knowing full well that Erik and I were negating each other's votes, but I went anyway.
...

BUT, IF you didn't vote to negate his vote he would have won!

The best thing about your relationship with him is that even though your political view points are different, you respect each other and remain civil.

We *were* civil. Unfortunately, Erik committed suicide on September 26, 2007. He was four months shy of turning 44. To the day.

I have pictures I took of him shortly after we found my baby, Joy Noelle (she's a cat but thinks she's a Great Dane). She was five weeks old when we found her, and Erik--at 6'4" and 325 pounds--made her look microscopic when he'd hold her in one of his giant hands. I can't even look at his pics yet. It's been four years but it's still just too...raw.

I could go on quite the tangent about how poorly he was treated as a veteran, and how that was directly related to his decision to eat his gun that night. But I'll save that for another time...

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

The more radical and frothing a post is, the worse the grammar and spelling.

So... do radicalism and frothiness short-circuit the language and grammar systems of the brain? Or do undeveloped language and grammar systems result in radicalism and frothiness?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

The more radical and frothing a post is, the worse the grammar and spelling.

So... do radicalism and frothiness short-circuit the language and grammar systems of the brain? Or do undeveloped language and grammar systems result in radicalism and frothiness?

That's a real conundrum.

It could also be a feed-back loop or the result of inbreeding. But, a lot of people with little or no education are smart enough to know how to be civil and respectful of others, even if they don't speak or write well. I can't say it is because of a lack of parental upbringing because the only "upbringing" my dad gave me was "If you get thrown in jail don't call me." That was after years of insults and physical abuse, interspersed with long periods of neglect. And, some of the most intelligent, college trained people I know are verbally abusive to their spouse, children, family and friends, and with perfect English.

If there is a common factor it would, IMO, be that both sides are are ideologues who feel their world/political view is perfect and absolute, and they make no allowance for, or admit to, the possibility that they could be wrong, so they shoot their wounded and eat their young for the slightest transgression of their doctrine, and everyone else is the "enemy". They are quick to wear the mantel of victim-hood when it is advantageous, even when they are the perpetrator. While many of such posters appear to be mere lapdogs to the "intelligentsia" of their niche, some show surprising sophistication of thought buried in their scrawl. Unfortunately, too many on both sides are recommending the ammo box instead of the ballot box, and it is obvious they haven't completely thought out that path and have never heard the zip of a bullet passing by close enough to feel its wind.


Fortunately, while there are times of troubles, and there is a LOT of blame to go around, from citizen apathy to congressional corruption, the majority of citizen feel as I do that the ballot box is still the best solution.

[ardvark71]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

"because the Bible says so!" ... if the Bible says it's wrong, it's wrong!

Iron age fairy tales. Tales written eons before:

years of research showing anatomical differences between the brains of gays and straights, and other data supporting the concept that gays are born that way,

Faith is no longer necessary in the modern world. Fortunately we now have:

Scientists want to understand the nature of the universe. Questions about the universe lead to questions about matter. Questions about matter lead to questions about energy. Questions about energy lead to questions about the very concepts of time and space.

Much of which we now know: we understand why eclipses occur, how continents shift, and how to reliably measure vast distances. Science will continue to find more answers, and in no case will:

a "divine" observer outside it all

be an answer.

Hi...

I would definitely have to disagree. My past 7 years with God have been nothing short of incredible and miraculous....where Faith is very real and in every way, a part of my life. He doesn't merely "observe," he interacts in ways that would blow your mind. He has mine.

I wrote a bit of my background on post #4 here, if anyone is interested.

Regards...

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

The more radical and frothing a post is, the worse the grammar and spelling.

So... do radicalism and frothiness short-circuit the language and grammar systems of the brain? Or do undeveloped language and grammar systems result in radicalism and frothiness?

That's a real conundrum.

It could also be a feed-back loop or the result of inbreeding. But, a lot of people with little or no education are smart enough to know how to be civil and respectful of others, even if they don't speak or write well. I can't say it is because of a lack of parental upbringing because the only "upbringing" my dad gave me was "If you get thrown in jail don't call me." That was after years of insults and physical abuse, interspersed with long periods of neglect. And, some of the most intelligent, college trained people I know are verbally abusive to their spouse, children, family and friends, and with perfect English.

If there is a common factor it would, IMO, be that both sides are are ideologues who feel their world/political view is perfect and absolute, and they make no allowance for, or admit to, the possibility that they could be wrong, so they shoot their wounded and eat their young for the slightest transgression of their doctrine, and everyone else is the "enemy". They are quick to wear the mantel of victim-hood when it is advantageous, even when they are the perpetrator. While many of such posters appear to be mere lapdogs to the "intelligentsia" of their niche, some show surprising sophistication of thought buried in their scrawl. Unfortunately, too many on both sides are recommending the ammo box instead of the ballot box, and it is obvious they haven't completely thought out that path and have never heard the zip of a bullet passing by close enough to feel its wind.


Fortunately, while there are times of troubles, and there is a LOT of blame to go around, from citizen apathy to congressional corruption, the majority of citizen feel as I do that the ballot box is still the best solution.

This.

DYK, your pro-life woman (don't know if she was Catholic or not) may have only been referring to all human life. In the Catholic Church, we believe

The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 382)

There is a difference of opinion whether fetuses/embryos have souls, Catholics and some Protestants say yes, others say no, hence the big abortion debate.

The closest thing I can find in reference to other animals is this:

God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals, if it remains within reasonable limits, is a morally acceptable practice since it contributes to caring for or saving human lives

It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 2417-2418)

Us RC's have taken a (fairly reasonable IMO) middle ground on the issue of non-human animals.

The problem with saying something like "The Bible says X" is that different denominations have diffrernt interpretations of what the Bible actually says. The Catholics (like me) have one interpretation of the hooy book, the Lutherans another, Baptists, Copts, Orthodoxers(?) and Mormons have others. This may be the case, but still these "Iron age fairy tales" have lessons to be learned on, not on how we got here, but why we are here and how we should treat each other.

Back to politics, one should remember the Golden Rule

"One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."

[woodsmoke]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

QQmike wrote:

Making YOUR choices is easy in life (generally speaking).

Making the choice to accept the choices of others can be difficult and require some effort, some perspective, some acceptance,

and maybe a touch of cosmic humor.

Sometimes, it helps to be drunk.

I ALWAYS keep my bathrobe nearby WITH a beer and peanuts....and a small supply of pocket lint!!

ummmm that is one reason why I have found that a Chateu Neuf of any acceptable vintage and at the correct temperature.....

or ANY rum drink.....

is a good thing!!

woodoflikemindsmoke

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

DYK, your pro-life woman (don't know if she was Catholic or not) may have only been referring to all human life. In the Catholic Church, we believe

The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 382)

There is a difference of opinion whether fetuses/embryos have souls, Catholics and some Protestants say yes, others say no, hence the big abortion debate.

I'm not religious at all, but I would think that even a blastocyst has a soul. But I'm referring to ALL blastocysts, not just human blastocysts.

The closest thing I can find in reference to other animals is this:

God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.

I CANNOT fathom how anyone can interpret the above to mean that God--any god, regardless of one's religion--condones abusing animals. And that, as I so often say, is my problem with the meat industry, plain and simple: cruelty to animals.

Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing.

See above.

They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure.

I'm glad I've had all the pets I've had in my lifetime, and I"m not opposed to things like riding horses (if they're properly cared for), but other (ab)uses, such as using elephants and other wild animals in circuses, I'm 100% against.

Medical and scientific experimentation on animals, if it remains within reasonable limits, is a morally acceptable practice since it contributes to caring for or saving human lives

No, it doesn't save lives. Not only that but it's horrendously cruel. The nonsensical sentence "if it remains within reasonable limits" means...WHAT? That you can pour acid down an animal's throat once a day? once a week? what? The truth about animal use in labs is that they suffer greatly, in every way, from being locked up in cages to having caustic substances forced down their throats, rubbed into raw sores on their skin, poured into their eyes, etc. You're all aware of how similar monkeys/chimpanzees are to humans, right? And how social they are? Now picture them locked up--for life--in little cages with no interaction with others of their species, knowing nothing but pain and suffering every day. What god thinks that's okay? And to get back to my first sentence, testing on animals has proven TIME AND TIME again to be useless when it comes to extrapolating from data based on animal research to how humans will react. The plethora of drugs [and other products] that were tested on animals, deemed safe for humans, put on the market, then later withdrawn after horrific side effects (like babies born with limbs missing) and/or death occurred have made this clear. It's impossible to get accurate, meaningful test results from non-human animals...unless the product you're testing is for use on the animal you're testing it on.

It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

That statement alone SHOULD make factory farming--and testing on animals--a crime in the eyes of those who follow that religion.

It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

I won't even attempt to argue about this! I treat my pets like children, always have, always will. I contribute money--and, in the past, contributed thousands of hours of my time--to organizations that help humans, but I contribute more to those that help animals. Why? Because non-human animals have fewer human animals standing up for them.

The problem with saying something like "The Bible says X" is that different denominations have diffrernt interpretations of what the Bible actually says. The Catholics (like me) have one interpretation of the hooy book, the Lutherans another, Baptists, Copts, Orthodoxers(?) and Mormons have others. This may be the case, but still these "Iron age fairy tales" have lessons to be learned on, not on how we got here, but why we are here and how we should treat each other.

My big issue with "the Bible says..." is, as I've said before, that's not a REASON. At least not in my eyes. A reason involves thought and consideration, not blindly following something God may--or may not--have said.

Back to politics, one should remember the Golden Rule

"One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."

Exactly. And that's why my best friend and I are best friends, and why Erik and I were such great friends, despite our wildly differing political views.

[SteveRiley]

Re: Politics: How do they affect your personal life?

Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address:

In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.